How come Jordan couldn't win one title in the defensively weak 80s?

[Calabis]

Jazz were favored to beat the Bulls 98 as were the Lakers

[97 bulls]

This has to be a joke, even for a troll.

Love how you just put 'whole 98 postseason' when he won the FMVP and hit the gameunner as a 35 year old.

Or shots by Kerr and Paxson away from 2 less rings... even though there would still have been a game 7. Not the same as Ray's season saving shot.

Team cancer, egomaniac, statpadder, shotjacker? Bulls won 6 championships with him as a leader in an 8 year period. Doesn't sound bad.

3x 1st round loss and quit in 86... you are pathetic.

No matter what Lebron ends up accomplishing, he will have legitimate black marks on his resume. Jordan never lost once with HCA or as a favorite. He failed early on in his career, but once the team around him was good enough, he led them to victory in six seasons. No shame in admitting that this is a team game. Lebron failed as the favorite with HCA with a stacked team to the tune of arguably the most pathetic finals performances by a superstar EVER.

Lebron's realistic ceiling is second all time, if that.

Their argument is a friggn joke. The 66 win Cavs lost to the 59 win Magic who didn't even have their second best player in Jameer Nelson. Its just unbelievable. I mean, talk about throwing stones out of a glass house.

[97 bulls]

Jazz were favored to beat the Bulls 98 as were the Lakers

And the Bulls were still competing for best record during that season without Scottie Pippen.

[Calabis]

And the Bulls were still competing for best record during that season without Scottie Pippen.

But Lebron though was killing HOF member stacked teams in the east when he was with Cleveland.

[Black Mamba's B]

Most uninformed fans think Jordan was automatically the best player soon as he stepped in the league. It took a little bit of time to reach the highest level and he eventually did. Jordan went against better teams - Bucks, Pistons, Celtics, Lakers, etc and went against better players - Bird, Magic.

The success Jordan came across in the 90's was a combination of him ascending to greatness and becoming the best player, a great supporting cast being built around him and the dominant teams of the 80's falling off

[russwest0]

How come Jordan couldn't win one title in the defensively weak 80s?

He was just coasting.

[Nevaeh]

"before SG's were ever thought of as defensive threats"

This thread is just dumb but please stop reaching man. Sid Moncrief was the best SG in the league when Jordan came around and he was playing really good all-around offense while locking guys down on defense, making all-nba 1st team, winning couple of dpoy's, leading his team in points, rebounds and assists, great all-around baller, both ways... Even much before, Jerry West was just great on both sides, dudes like DJ, Micheal Ray or Jerry Sloan were capable of really good offense and defense. Michael Cooper, another example, not that good offense as some of those guys but solid enough and beastly defense. (not even gonna mention other perimeter positions)
As far as offense only, SG's like David Thompson or Walter Davis, even some others, had plenty of similarities to MJ's game (before MJ), just that he took it to new heights, as ridiculous as that is.

He didn't revolutionize nothing in the way you speak of, he just took it to a whole nother level, a level very few even reached (overall).

That's my point though. He raised the standard to the point where perimeter defense could be just as dominant as protecting the paint. Jordan was the player that commentators were saying that you always had to keep your eye on, based on how he roamed the floor definsively. 200 steals and 100 blocks for 2 straight years ain't nothing to sneeze at, all while dropping 30+ points per game.

Even when you guys compliment Jordan, you still try to minimize his impact in the same damn post. Last time I checked, "Taking stuff to a whole nother level" was considered "revolutionary".

[CavaliersFTW]

That's my point though. He raised the standard to the point where perimeter defense could be just as dominant as protecting the paint. Jordan was the player that commentators were saying that you always had to keep your eye on, based on how he roamed the floor definsively. 200 steals and 100 blocks for 2 straight years ain't nothing to sneeze at, all while dropping 30+ points per game.

Even when you guys compliment Jordan, you still try to minimize his impact in the same damn post. Last time I checked, "Taking stuff to a whole nother level" was considered "revolutionary".

Uh, no, Jerry West and Clyde Frazier were doing pretty much the same thing on the defensive end a long time before Jordan. And in West's case he was also virtually as dominant on the offensive end just like Jordan. Jordan didn't revolutionize 2-way guard impact, maybe influenced some guard play stylistically in how he palmed and carried the ball and by playing above the rim, but his raw defensive punch wasn't anything new for backcourt NBA players, not even for superstar or dominant offensive ones because as I stated Jerry West was a dominant defensive guard.

[97 bulls]

Uh, no, Jerry West and Clyde Frazier were doing pretty much the same thing on the defensive end a long time before Jordan

West and Frasier were blocking over 100 shots a season?

[Nevaeh]

West and Frasier were blocking over 100 shots a season?

Not to mention that Jordan's ranked number 3 all-time in career steals, behind Stockton and Jason Kidd, 2 guys with ridiculously long career longevity, at 19 straight years apiece. Neither West nor Frazier even cracks the top 30 list for steals, nor the top 100 for blocks (Jordan's at 99, with a whole lotta Big Men ahead of him).

[Legends66NBA7]

Not to mention that Jordan's ranked number 3 all-time in career steals, behind Stockton and Jason Kidd, 2 guys with ridiculously long career longevity, at 19 straight years apiece. Neither West nor Frazier even cracks the top 30 list for steals, nor the top 100 for blocks (Jordan's at 99, with a whole lotta Big Men ahead of him).

No Nev, you can't use all-time steals against West and Frazier.

West and Fraizer don't crack the Top 30 in steals because for all but West's final season steals and blocks were recorded. In West's final season alone he averaged 2.6spg in 31 games. Just imagine how many he would have had before that. He would have clearly been right up there with Jordan if not more.

Same with Frazier, steals and blocks weren't recorded in his first 6 seasons. In his final 7 seasons, 4 of them he averaged over 1.5spg.

Now on blocks, neither I think would challenge Jordan here, but I think West would be up there. He did have long arms and good enough hops.

I'm not saying their overall better, but they don't have the record book on their side either which by no means is their fault.

[Legends66NBA7]

Also, Jerry West holds the Lakers record for steals in a game with 9. It's a 40 year old record now. That speaks volumes about how many steals he could have possibly had in his better defensive seasons.

[Nevaeh]

Also, Jerry West holds the Lakers record for steals in a game with 9. It's a 40 year old record now. That speaks volumes about how many steals he could have possibly had in his better defensive seasons.

Good points Legends, but my point still stands that Jordan was revolutionary on what he was able to accomplish, with regards to how he stacked up against his peers, and how he stacked up based on how stats were recorded

We can do the "imagine if" game with every player, as this Board proves in thread after thread. I just have a problem with this trend of trying to minimize what actually happened and playing up what "coulda happened, if......." all the damn time.

[Legends66NBA7]

Good points Legends, but my point still stands that Jordan was revolutionary on what he was able to accomplish, with regards to how he stacked up against his peers, and how he stacked up based on how stats were recorded

We can do the "imagine if" game with every player, as this Board proves in thread after thread. I just have a problem with this trend of trying to minimize what actually happened and playing up what "coulda happened, if......." all the damn time.

Oh I agree with your overall point. Jordan is a Top 10 defensive guard/perimeter player. Especially when you consider he had such an offensive burden to carry too. He's very revolutionary in that regard, but I feel you on when people try to downplay that (not exactly here) in threads. Fortunately, more and more and facts come out pointing in favour of Jordan.

[CavaliersFTW]

West and Frasier were blocking over 100 shots a season?

Jerry West most certainly. Jerry West was an elite shot blocking guard.