How come Jordan couldn't win one title in the defensively weak 80s?

[BoutPractice]

I'm pretty sure this was designed as a counterargument to "Kareem only won 1 in the 70s". And sure, it's a valid one, but the competition was much better in Jordan's era.

[AI Thornton]

I mean, he scored so many points and all, people brag about his 60+ vs Boston, his 37-8-8, etc. Why no rings?

Because his team sucked compared to the Pistons and Celtics, plain and simple.

[Nevaeh]

How come Jordan couldn't win one title in the defensively weak 80s?

The same reason Shaq and Kobe couldn't win one in the "defensively weak" 90s.

[HomieWeMajor]

David Stern was still exploiting the race relations in the US in the 80s. When his two main antagonists were out of the league in the 90s he turned to MJ to be the poster boy of the league.

[Dragonyeuw]

The same reason Shaq and Kobe couldn't win one in the "defensively weak" 90s.

Annnnnnnd we're done here.

[Quickening]

This is the black mark in my opinion on Jordans legacy that gets ignored too much... he never really did anything until his late 20s when he got all star calibre help from Pippen and a great supporting case, didn't even get to the finals before this.

There is more to basketball than putting up big numbers and highlight reels, I dont think Jordan had the intangibles that made team mates much better. When he left Chicago, the following season, they barely missed a beat. Most teams if the best player ever left in his prime would have a massive drop off surely

[Knoe Itawl]

Come on bro. You're better than this

No, Kobetards aren't.

[Nevaeh]

This is the black mark in my opinion on Jordans legacy that gets ignored too much... he never really did anything until his late 20s when he got all star calibre help from Pippen and a great supporting case, didn't even get to the finals before this.

He didn't do anything..........except revolutionise his SG position, to the extent that it's still held as the "standard" for it, till this day. He also proved that a perimeter player can be just as deadly on both sides of the ball, before SGs were ever thought of as defensive threats.

I won't waste time on the "all star calibre help" line, considering how long MJ had to wait for that "help" to finally kick in and contribute on any consistent level at all.

There is more to basketball than putting up big numbers and highlight reels, I dont think Jordan had the intangibles that made team mates much better. When he left Chicago, the following season, they barely missed a beat. Most teams if the best player ever left in his prime would have a massive drop off surely

When MJ left the team, he left it with the standard of being 3 time NBA champions, not playoff/finals choke artists. Anything less than the best from this team, which had MJ carrying them for every one of their Finals runs, would be considered a failure.

For all of that "All Star help" that he had, why couldn't they win a championship without him? Nobody seems to be able to answer this one, for some reason.

[Knoe Itawl]

This is the black mark in my opinion on Jordans legacy that gets ignored too much... he never really did anything until his late 20s when he got all star calibre help from Pippen and a great supporting case, didn't even get to the finals before this.

There is more to basketball than putting up big numbers and highlight reels, I dont think Jordan had the intangibles that made team mates much better. When he left Chicago, the following season, they barely missed a beat. Most teams if the best player ever left in his prime would have a massive drop off surely

*sigh*

And now there's a new generation of Lebrontards. Which sucks because I like Lebron. However, I'm disliking his obnoxious fans as much as the Kobetards now.

There isn't a "black mark" on a career with 5 MVPs (should have had more), 6 Finals MVPS, DPOY, 10 time scoring leader, 6 titles, 6 for 6 in the Finals etc. etc.

EVERY player has failures. It's about how do the failures match up to the triumphs and Jordan's far exceeds his in a way no other player has.

You don't do Lebron any favors by trying this stuff. Just let Lebron reach Jordan status if that's his destiny. If not, then oh well.

[diamenz]

^great posts *high fives*

[K Xerxes]

This is the black mark in my opinion on Jordans legacy that gets ignored too much... he never really did anything until his late 20s when he got all star calibre help from Pippen and a great supporting case, didn't even get to the finals before this.

There is more to basketball than putting up big numbers and highlight reels, I dont think Jordan had the intangibles that made team mates much better. When he left Chicago, the following season, they barely missed a beat. Most teams if the best player ever left in his prime would have a massive drop off surely

I wonder what proportion of the ISH community know the team mates MJ had in the mid 80s. Do you know who Orlando Woolridge and Dave Corzine are?

You think Lebron's supporting cast were scrubs in Cleveland, think about MJ's, and consider the strength of competition he was going up against in the East.

[97 bulls]

*sigh*

And now there's a new generation of Lebrontards. Which sucks because I like Lebron. However, I'm disliking his obnoxious fans as much as the Kobetards now.

There isn't a "black mark" on a career with 5 MVPs (should have had more), 6 Finals MVPS, DPOY, 10 time scoring leader, 6 titles, 6 for 6 in the Finals etc. etc.

EVERY player has failures. It's about how do the failures match up to the triumphs and Jordan's far exceeds his in a way no other player has.

You don't do Lebron any favors by trying this stuff. Just let Lebron reach Jordan status if that's his destiny. If not, then oh well.

The bold. Truer words have never been spoken.

I just can't see why some of these posters are so unreasonable. I mean, look at the Bulls team in 86. They played what some feel is arguably the greatest team ever. And they weren't blown out every game by 30 pts. They were only down by two at half time in game and lost in double over time in game two.

Is it so unreasonable to think that if there were drastic upgrades at every position then the Celtics would be in a dog fight? Take coke head Orlando Wooldridge and replace him with a prime Scottie Pippen. Replace a young inexperienced Charles Oakley with a player like Dennis Rodman? Give them the best coach ever in Phil Jackson. Replace Gene Banks with Toni Kukoc? Hell even 86 Jordan was by no means the best we ever saw of him.

The Bulls didn't win because the talent just wasnt there.

[LAZERUSS]

The bold. Truer words have never been spoken.

I just can't see why some of these posters are so unreasonable. I mean, look at the Bulls team in 86. They played what some feel is arguably the greatest team ever. And they weren't blown out every game by 30 pts. They were only down by two at half time in game and lost in double over time in game two.

Is it so unreasonable to think that if there were drastic upgrades at every position then the Celtics would be in a dog fight? Take coke head Orlando Wooldridge and replace him with a prime Scottie Pippen. Replace a young inexperienced Charles Oakley with a player like Dennis Rodman? Give them the best coach ever in Phil Jackson. Replace Gene Banks with Toni Kukoc? Hell even 86 Jordan was by no means the best we ever saw of him.

The Bulls didn't win because the talent just wasnt there.

But, then again, the same applies to Chamberlain, who actually took even worse rosters, and against equally great teams, even further.

Or KAJ in the 70's. Or Oscar in the 60's. Or McAdoo in the mid-70's. Or Moses in the late 70's and early 80's. Or Lebron prior to his Heat days. Or KG in the bulk of the 00's. And I'm sure you could come up with many others.

[97 bulls]

I wonder what proportion of the ISH community know the team mates MJ had in the mid 80s. Do you know who Orlando Woolridge and Dave Corzine are?

You think Lebron's supporting cast were scrubs in Cleveland, think about MJ's, and consider the strength of competition he was going up against in the East.

And to add......the Eastern Conference back in the 80s was ten time better than the Eastern Conference we see today and when James was in Cleveland. Teams are literally trying to lose games. Take the 86 Bulls and pit them vs the Eastern Conference teams of today and they'd be a 55 win team.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You think Lebron's supporting cast were scrubs in Cleveland, think about MJ's, and consider the strength of competition he was going up against in the East.

Exactly.