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  1. #61
    I feel devotion Fiba basketball's Avatar
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    Default Re: nikola Mirotic vs Dario Saric

    Quote Originally Posted by Oly BC
    Oh please, even the greek league is better. The top greek teams blow the top adriatic league teams out of the water and we have a bunch that could get knocked out in eurocup's first round like Cibona...

    I'd guess now the German league is also clearly ahead and moving up fast.
    Your top teams ( PAO and OLY ) are better but your othere teams are worse.

    German league isn't that good at all.

    They have Alba, Bayern and Bamberg that are good enough for European compatitions but othere ones suck.

    Also those 3 teams aren't even better than top teams from Adriatic league.

    Only team in German league that is improving is Bayern and all othere's are staying the same or getting worse so I don't get why people are saying their league is getting better every year when it's just one team.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: nikola Mirotic vs Dario Saric

    Bamberg is building a pretty good roster for next year and Bayern is better than anyone in the adriatic league.
    Why are the other teams in the greek league worse? Panionios made it past the group stage in eurocup and Cibona didn't. Is Cibona a better team just because?

  3. #63
    I feel devotion Fiba basketball's Avatar
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    Default Re: nikola Mirotic vs Dario Saric

    Quote Originally Posted by Oly BC
    Bamberg is building a pretty good roster for next year and Bayern is better than anyone in the adriatic league.
    Why are the other teams in the greek league worse? Panionios made it past the group stage in eurocup and Cibona didn't. Is Cibona a better team just because?
    And how is Bayern better than any team in ABA league ???

    They lost to Partizan in Belgrade ( Partizan played that game without two of it's best players, Milosavljevic and Bogdanovic ) and barly won at home ( they were down 15 pts at one moment ) and Partizan is horrible when it comes to playing away.
    Just to be clear we're talking about Partizan that was worse than ever because of all the injures.

    I'm not saying Cibona is better than Panionios but you need to compare all teams and your mid and lower level team are much worse which is too be expected since in ABA you have teams from 7 different countires and Greece isn't that big or rich of a country to be able to have many good teams.

  4. #64
    I Feel Devotion Euroleague's Avatar
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    Default Re: nikola Mirotic vs Dario Saric

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiba basketball
    Your top teams ( PAO and OLY ) are better but your othere teams are worse.

    German league isn't that good at all.

    They have Alba, Bayern and Bamberg that are good enough for European compatitions but othere ones suck.

    Also those 3 teams aren't even better than top teams from Adriatic league.

    Only team in German league that is improving is Bayern and all othere's are staying the same or getting worse so I don't get why people are saying their league is getting better every year when it's just one team.
    I am sorry man, but you are overrating Adriatic League and you are REALLY overrating Turkish League and Italian League.

    Let's get real here for a second.

    Adriatic League - it's everything you just said about "other Greek teams" besides Olympiacos and Panathinaikos if not worse. For example, Aris, PAOK, Panionis, AENK........any one of those clubs can make final four of Adriatic League every year and if you argue that, you are just on drugs.

    The difference is not in the level of the clubs, it's in that they have fans showing up to the arenas and those clubs don't, so they were still getting the respect of Bertomeu. But as you can see, that well has now ran dry.

    OK, Turkish League - Yeah, every "big club" is HUGELY overrated.

    Efes and Fener spends tons of money every year and NEVER do a jack you know what with it. So what if you have a huge budget, buy any player you want, any coach you want, etc?

    They have been doing this for YEARS. I swear EVERY year for YEARS they are the favorite. EVERY year in the summer they are the paper champions and kings of the transfer season.

    When was the last time either team did ANYTHING at all? These clubs are just somehow natural born losers. They have it all.......huge market, fans, arenas, budgets, money, but they cannot win. It's that simple.

    If they were in NBA they would be something like the New York Knicks. They are "huge clubs" that in REALITY, they are mediocre top 16 clubs (teams that play awful in top 16), in most years, or in an INCREDIBLE amazing year every once in awhile might make the playoffs and lose.

    Then you ave their third team Galatasaray....this team actually has winning mentality, unlike the other two. Again, they have everything, big market, big budget, can buy any player, any coach, they have lots of depth, they have tons of fans, they pack the arena, it's crazy hard to play in that arena...

    BUT, let's be serious here. What have they ever done either? They don't have that loser mentality like the other two, but they are just not a very serious club though. They are something like Bayern to be honest about it and no more than that.

    They have some good mid tier teams, then Banvit, Karsyiaka, Darusafaka has a 20 million euro budget for a mid tier team, etc. But look at the bottom of the league. It's absolutely horrible. It's that same BS nonsense how when people just endlessly would say how great the ACB was and always ignore how horrifically bad the bottom teams of the league were. Now of course people even in Spain finally figured that out.

    But you used to see crazy claims like "worst team in ACB would be 3rd in Greece, 2nd in Russia" and crazy claims like that. Now of course the whole bottom of the league blew apart and finally they all STFU. But always there 6-7 absolutely HORRIBLE teams in ACB. Same with TBL.

    You have to factor that in when you talk about quality of a league. Is the bottom of TBL even as good as the bottom of the German League? I have serious doubts.


    Italian League
    - I don't even know what to say.......this league is absolute CRAP. How can you put this league as one of the better ones in Europe? Are you serious? For real? Hell, I would put Greek League as way freaking better than Italian League, I maybe even give Adriatic League edge over that POS league too.

    God that league is TERRIBLE. I admit their 2nd division is nice - by far and away the strongest 2nd division in all of Europe. But that waters down their first league a lot. They have their league spread out too much over two divisions, unlike so much in the other countries, although Greek and Spanish 2nd divisions are fairly solid also.

    But in Italy they put a lot of emphasis in the 2nd division and it hurts in the first division. And seriously, what the hell do they even have in the Italian League anymore?

    It's a POS league. They play absolutely no defense at all, there is no physical play of any kind. So it's the same as Spanish League. Let's say opposite of Greek League or Adriatic League that is defense oriented and physical (especially Greek league).....but unlike in Spanish League, the teams mostly suck.

    Milano - one OK Euroleague team and that's it.

    Cantu - decent Eurocup level team

    Sasari - yeah they are in Euroleague but they won't do crap. maybe top if they get lucky, nothing more than that. The new Cantu.

    Siena is dead.

    Roma - barely decent Eurocup team.

    Regio Emilia?

    And a whole bunch of similar crap teams. I mean saying for example that league that all the other teams in Greece are nothing....those kinds of teams like Roma and all those such Italian teams - they are not even close to as good as Greek teams like PAOK, Panionios, AENK, KOAD of last year. These are teams better than Cantu etc.

    So yeah, you have an EXTREME overrating of Italian league. You forget, if a league has a poor team and with a modest roster, it always is one thing if they are tactical and play extremely physical and very hard defense and no American players make it in the team without such a mentality. Example any team in Greece or some of the teams in Adriatic that are not just being operated as youth farms.

    In Italy, it is just the exact opposite. Just freaking run all over the court and do whatever, even if the players are bad and the coaching is bad and the overall general level is bad and there are no tactics at all.
    Last edited by Euroleague; 07-25-2014 at 09:20 PM.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: nikola Mirotic vs Dario Saric

    Quote Originally Posted by Oly BC
    Out of that list reasonable doubts can only be had for the french and lithuanian leagues.
    Jordi and his revenues....having to make sure Lithuanian League is ranked above so that he can get Rytas in the competitions and get the license for Zalgiris.



    Freaking hilarious.

  6. #66
    I Feel Devotion Euroleague's Avatar
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    Default Re: nikola Mirotic vs Dario Saric

    Quote Originally Posted by Oly BC
    Bamberg is building a pretty good roster for next year and Bayern is better than anyone in the adriatic league.
    Why are the other teams in the greek league worse? Panionios made it past the group stage in eurocup and Cibona didn't. Is Cibona a better team just because?
    Bamberg has really rich ownership, a fairly decent budget that gets bigger every year, and their fans really support them. They sell out every single game. They should expand their arena already because it isn't big enough.

    I am sure they will get better as the demand is there from the fans and the owners and they increase their revenue and the budget keeps getting bigger and the owners have the money to spend since they are very rich.

    As for Greek League, it's the fashionable thing for everyone to say it is a 2 team league. Everyone just says that whether it is true or not. Of course it isn't true.

    Of course the Greek league finals are rigged every year for Panathinaikos. But they also had to rig the semifinals because they could not beat PAOK either.

    Last season Greek League had teams like PAOK, KAOD, Panionios that any of them could make final four in Adriatic League.

    I mean hell look at last season's Cibona roster, that won Adriatic league. Freaking last season's Aris had about the same level roster as Cibona did. They even had a better roster really until Athiniaou left the team.

    In Greek League a team like Aris was fighting like hell to even make the playoffs.

    It's just this whole "Greek League only has two good teams and all the other teams suck" thing is all anyone says and they just repeat it a million times. Without ever looking at a game, looking at a roster, knowing any of the players, the coaches, anything.

    It's complete bullshit though, because again, Panathinaikos had to rig the semifinals last year to even beat PAOK. They would have lost with fair reffing to PAOK in the playoffs. So it obviously can't be a "two team league".

    I think really Greek League has consistently been more like 5-6 team league. It's been consistently deep with 5-6 teams year after year that could make it out of the group stage at the Eurocup, unless they got in a crazy hard group and get injuries, which happened to PAOL last year and Panionios the year before. But that's the flaw of how Eurocup is setup.

    But you can't compare it to some Turkey or Russia or Adriatic like that when half the league gets a place in those competitions and just say "those leagues are better, otherwise Greece would have a place".

    Greek clubs don't get places in those competitions. But people like Fiba just take it as a league is based on strength of how many places it gets in Eurocup, which is completely ridiculous. Eurocup places are NOT given based on league strength, at least up until the current time that's not how it has worked. They are given out through how Euroleague sees fit to allocate them for their own reasons. NOT based on "league strength".

    Even a club like AENK from last year's Greek League could probably have won Adriatic League. That was their first freaking year in Greece first division.

    It's just become this new thing to say "there are only 2 teams in Greek league" so everyone say that now. It's not true. Since people started saying that, it's consistently had 5-6 Eurocup 2nd stage level teams.

    Bartzokas even got asked something about last season about how it was so easy playing Greek league compared to "the glory days of the league" when he coached in Maroussi and he stared the reported down and said the league was much more competitive now than then. His own words....it's better now.

    Papamakarios got asked about how easy it was playing in Greek league after 2 years in Spanish league...he said there was basically no difference in the level at all and it was all BS when people and even players say that, even other Greek players if they say that. He said it was pretty much identical level between the two leagues.

    One more........Lasme - he got asked by a reporter how would he "adjust" to playing in super hard league in Turkey where he had to play tough in every game where there were so many good games because all the teams were good, unlike in Greek league where it is so easy to play because all the teams are so terrible and you can just take every game off and it's so easy and you can just rest.........

    He just looked at the reporter (a Greek one) like he was freaking and said, the Greek league is freaking hard man, it's a really hard league. It's pretty damn tough and hard to play in the Greek league. Every weak it's really hard in the Greek league. I am sure if could handle playing in the Greek league I can easily handle anything they have in the Turkish league.

    And Lasme has played in Spain before so........it's just complete bullshit.

    People saying this stuff don't even realize that if you followed Greek League from when it was supposedly "used to be so strong" games used to be a lot of 30-40-50 point blow outs watching Olympiacos or Panathinaikos....

    You see competitive games now...like 5 points, 8 points, 3 points..those kind of games. But supposedly the "league is much much worse than it used to be".

    I will actually watch some domestic leagues and it's more like leagues in Spain and Italy that got worse. Not Greece. Basically Panathinaikos got weaker, but due to the ref rigging they are STILL unbeatable (in Greek League) so that stayed the same, something people that don't watch Greek League probably don't grasp. They can use the junior team and still win the Greek double probably.

    Olympiacos spent less.........and got better simply because they got real players and a real team finally. They were a joke in those Childress years. So they actually got better.

    It's just really in all honesty teams like Aris that of course got much much worse, because of huge budget cuts, going from a top 16 and borderline Euroleague playoff team to what they are now and Panionios that got a little bit worse (due to budget cuts).

    The rest of the teams really I think got better. And people made a big deal about Maroussi or Panellinios bankrupting. But so what? Already AEK came back, which is the 3rd biggest Greek club, and that was not even there during the supposed "glory time". Already like I said there is a club like AENK which looks like the new Maroussi, etc.

    So it's definitely bullshit about it being a 2 team league. There are 5-6 good to decent teams every year.
    Last edited by Euroleague; 07-25-2014 at 09:52 PM.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: nikola Mirotic vs Dario Saric

    Aint no one reading all that shit

  8. #68
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    Default Re: nikola Mirotic vs Dario Saric

    How does Mirotic look this season?

  9. #69
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    Default Re: nikola Mirotic vs Dario Saric

    Bump

  10. #70
    Induuubitably Done_And_Done's Avatar
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    Default Re: nikola Mirotic vs Dario Saric

    29 and 9
    23 and 8
    26 and 8

    Over his last 3 outings. Pretty impressive stat sheet. I'll admit that I'm clearly basing this post on stats and not the coveted eye test.

  11. #71
    Induuubitably Done_And_Done's Avatar
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    Default Re: nikola Mirotic vs Dario Saric

    Oh wow, dude put got to the line a whole slew of times tonight. 14-16 from the stripe. Gotta love that if you're a Bulls fan...

  12. #72
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    Default Re: nikola Mirotic vs Dario Saric

    Mirotic is a beast in the making, especially as a 3rd big. He should have gotten more consistent minutes thus far, even in a crowded frontcourt and when he hit the rookie wall. I figured the Bulls would be more willing to rest Pau/Noah/Taj when they had injuries, but I was wrong. I think they gotta give Mirotic 25MPG to keep developing him. He can swing some games there way, just as he did tonight.

    I think Saric needs to drastically improve his shooting. He's had a tendency to get hot towards end of seasons, but needs to consistently stroke it to make an impact.

    I read, like a month ago, that he was shooting 52% on 2-point FGA. However, plenty of these attempts came off drives, so that boosted that %. If he were taking that many shots off drives, I'd hope that his shooting in the paint/restricted area would be strong and that 52% would be dragged down by outside jumpers (otherwise, he may have a finishing problem in the NBA). Isn't he a below 30% shooter from 3 over his career? Don't think his midrange J is money yet, either, though that article I read probably has really outdated stats.

    Great passing and vision from a guy his size, though. If his shooting becomes consistent, 76ers potentially have a great piece.

  13. #73
    Induuubitably Done_And_Done's Avatar
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    Default Re: nikola Mirotic vs Dario Saric

    Swish, does the evolution of Miro make Taj dispensable (based on trade value) or do you see them both staying put over the long haul? Two completely different players + Miro is still on his rookie contract...

  14. #74
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    Default Re: nikola Mirotic vs Dario Saric

    Quote Originally Posted by Done_And_Done
    Swish, does the evolution of Miro make Taj dispensable (based on trade value) or do you see them both staying put over the long haul? Two completely different players + Miro is still on his rookie contract...
    I think it was smart to keep Taj through the deadline this year and it'd depend upon the offers for him this summer. He's given a lot to the org, and I think the FO appreciates that (plus Thibs love him). I'd say that, without the stats in front of me, he's been their most consistent defensive big due to Noah's slow recovery from that knee surgery. Now, if SAC offers their first for him and the Bulls could get WCS, I'd find that very interesting (although he's a garbage bucket scorer right now). That's above his value, but he still brings a lot to the table for this specific team.

    Mirotic stayed overseas long enough to be past his rookie deal and is actually on a ~$16M/3 year contract. So he's only making ~$3M less per year than Taj, I think. I'd keep both unless I could get a potential 2 way talent to replace Taj and could play alongside Pau/Noah/Mirotic. I think his trade value has peaked anyways and he's due to decline in some way soon (turning 30 this summer) with all the injuries he's played through.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: nikola Mirotic vs Dario Saric

    Quote Originally Posted by GOBB
    How does Mirotic look this season?
    most of us were right, Euroleague wasn't

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