Peak Shaq played awful against quality centers...

[aj1987]

A "scoring" Wilt averaged 33-27 and shot a full percentage points higher than the post-season league eFG% in his 52 playoff games, and 30 of those were against the greatest defensive center in NBA history.

But then, maybe you can find Shaq's FOUR 50+ point playoff games, THREE of which came in "must-win" situations. Or maybe you can find Shaq's must-win Finals game of 45 points, on 20-27 shooting (and in one of the few playoff games in Wilt's career in which he faced a "Todd McCullough" equivalent.)

And for those that use Shaq's Finals against a 35 year old Mutombo...Wilt had SEVERAL equivalent series against a PRIME Russell.

Did Shaq outrebound every opposing center he faced in his post-season career? Oh, and how about Shaq getting outrebounded by a 6-7 center?

Oh, and fans forget that a 35 year old Mutombo averaged 16 ppg on a .600 FG% against Shaq, as well. In Wilt' entire 29 post-season series, he allowed his opposing starting center to shoot 50+ in THREE of them, and the high was .521 (and that guy was outscored by Wilt, 38.6 ppg to 14.3 ppg.)

Shaq:

23.7 PPG in the RS
24.3 PPG in the PO's
29 PPG in the Finals

4/5 in the Finals.

Wilt:

30 PPG in the RS
22 PPG in the PO's
19 PPG in the Finals

2/6 in the Finals.

[LAZERUSS]

Shaq:

23.7 PPG in the RS
24.3 PPG in the PO's
29 PPG in the Finals

4/5 in the Finals.

Wilt:

30 PPG in the RS
22 PPG in the PO's
19 PPG in the Finals

2/6 in the Finals.

Oh, now it's about the FINALS.

Too bad a "scoring" Wilt had to go thru the greatest Dynasty in NBA history, with their SIX to NINE HOFers, EVERY year he played in that span.

Of course, had he had the luxury of facing the likes of the '00 Pacers with a washed up center in his last season, or the hapless '02 Nets, with a center who would have been a backup, at best, in the 60's...

well, he likely would have put huge numbers, as well.

We do know that when he faced the likes of Zelmo Beaty, who was a QUALITY center, he hung a 39-23 .559 seven game series on him.

And again, a "scoring" Wilt was hanging a 30-31 .555 FG% (in a post-season that shot .429) seven game series on RUSSELL. And taking a bottom-feeding 40-40 roster that he inherited at mid-season, to a game seven, one point loss against a 62-18 Celtic team at the peak of their Dynasty.

And one more time...a one-legged Wilt hung a 45-27 game (on 20-27 shooting) ...in a must win game...on a "MacCulloch" equivalent in game six of the '70 Finals.

[dankok8]

Gentlemen this is not a thread about Wilt!!

It's hilarious how aj1987 accuses me of cherry-picking when I post the complete H2H's between the players in their primes. He then responds by posting specific match-ups!

[LAZERUSS]

Gentlemen this is not a thread about Wilt!!

It's hilarious how aj1987 accuses me of cherry-picking when I post the complete H2H's between the players in their primes. He then responds by posting specific match-ups!

And he also accused you of being a Wilt fan.

[aj1987]

Oh, now it's about the FINALS.

Too bad a "scoring" Wilt had to go thru the greatest Dynasty in NBA history, with their SIX to NINE HOFers, EVERY year he played in that span.

Of course, had he had the luxury of facing the likes of the '00 Pacers with a washed up center in his last season, or the hapless '02 Nets, with a center who would have been a backup, at best, in the 60's...

well, he likely would have put huge numbers, as well.

We do know that when he faced the likes of Zelmo Beaty, who was a QUALITY center, he hung a 39-23 .559 seven game series on him.

And again, a "scoring" Wilt was hanging a 30-31 .555 FG% (in a post-season that shot .429) seven game series on RUSSELL. And taking a bottom-feeding 40-40 roster that he inherited at mid-season, to a game seven, one point loss against a 62-18 Celtic team at the peak of their Dynasty.

And one more time...a one-legged Wilt hung a 45-27 game (on 20-27 shooting) ...in a must win game...on a "MacCulloch" equivalent in game six of the '70 Finals.

Shaq:

23.7 PPG in the RS
24.3 PPG in the PO's
29 PPG in the Finals

4/6 in the Finals.

Wilt:

30 PPG in the RS
22 PPG in the PO's
19 PPG in the Finals

2/6 in the Finals.

@ dankok8, Because most of those game happened when Shaq was a rookie/sophmore. Also, it's not like Shaq's numbers dropped considerable, when playing against those ATG's and DPOY's. Are you trying to imply that 25/12/4 is bad when he's putting them against ATG's/DPOY's?

Heck, rookie Shaq dropped 23/14 on Mutombo, 22/14 against Ewing, 14/15 against Hakeem (on 48% and while taking only 11 shots a game) and held Hakeem to 21/14, and 17/13 agains Robinson (again, only 14 shots and 52%).

[Marchesk]

4/5 in the Finals.

4/6 brah: Hakeem & Kobe happened

Shaq was very impressive in the finals. Should be noted he had two great SGs to help him. Also can't forget the six times his teams got swept in the playoffs.

You can criticize Wilt for his failings, but Shaq and Kareem had failings as well. So did Bird, Magic, Lebron, Kobe, Duncan (missed layup, first round exits).

Russell is about the only one who gets a pass.

[aj1987]

4/6 brah: Hakeem & Kobe happened

Shaq was very impressive in the finals. Should be noted he had two great SGs to help him. Also can't forget the six times his teams got swept in the playoffs.

You can criticize Wilt for his failings, but Shaq and Kareem had failings as well. So did Bird, Magic, Lebron, Kobe, Duncan (missed layup, first round exits).

Russell is about the only one who gets a pass.

My bad. I never said Shaq was a perfect basketball player or that he didn't have his shortcomings.

[97 bulls]

Ive always believe Shaqs domiance was overrated. Its not a coincidence that his teams started winning when the great centers of the 90s got old and the Bulls got dismantled. Especially when he had far more talent to work with in Orlando with the Magic

[tmacattack33]

Here are Shaq's splits against HOF centers in his 1999-2000 season.

2 games vs. Patrick Ewing: 38.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.5 apg on 54.2 %FG/56.1 %TS
2 games vs. Ben Wallace: 33.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 6.0 apg on 68.4 %FG/68.0 %TS
3 games vs. David Robinson: 28.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.3 apg on 63.6 %FG/63.1 %TS
2 games vs. Alonzo Mourning: 22.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 5.0 apg on 43.6 %FG/48.0 %TS
4 games vs. Arvydas Sabonis: 20.5 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 50.0 %FG/49.7 %TS
3 games vs. Hakeem Olajuwon: 19.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 49.1 %FG/48.2 %TS
2 games vs. Dikembe Mutombo: 16.0 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 39.5 %FG/37.0 %TS

in 18 season games against HOF centers: 24.7 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.7 apg on 47.8 %FG/49.1 %TS

In 79 season games against the entire league: 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg on 57.4 FG%/57.8 TS%

2000 WCF 7 games against Arvydas Sabonis: 25.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 4.3 apg on 53.7 %FG/55.0 %TS




Mind you except Mourning and Mutombo none of those other guys are even in their primes. This honestly makes me reconsider his place on the all-time list a bit.

1. I'm a bit confused as to why you are only doing 1999-2000.

Do 1996-2004 or so, and come back to us with the stats.


2. Those stats aren't even bad...25 ppg, 12 rpb, on 47% FG when facing the best players at your position... That's considered bad ?????

[KnittingRyu]

Here are Shaq's splits against HOF centers in his 1999-2000 season.

2 games vs. Patrick Ewing: 38.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.5 apg on 54.2 %FG/56.1 %TS
2 games vs. Ben Wallace: 33.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 6.0 apg on 68.4 %FG/68.0 %TS
3 games vs. David Robinson: 28.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.3 apg on 63.6 %FG/63.1 %TS
2 games vs. Alonzo Mourning: 22.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 5.0 apg on 43.6 %FG/48.0 %TS
4 games vs. Arvydas Sabonis: 20.5 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 50.0 %FG/49.7 %TS
3 games vs. Hakeem Olajuwon: 19.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 49.1 %FG/48.2 %TS
2 games vs. Dikembe Mutombo: 16.0 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 39.5 %FG/37.0 %TS

in 18 season games against HOF centers: 24.7 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.7 apg on 47.8 %FG/49.1 %TS

In 79 season games against the entire league: 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg on 57.4 FG%/57.8 TS%

2000 WCF 7 games against Arvydas Sabonis: 25.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 4.3 apg on 53.7 %FG/55.0 %TS




Mind you except Mourning and Mutombo none of those other guys are even in their primes. This honestly makes me reconsider his place on the all-time list a bit.

So you are telling me that he played worse against the league's best centers? Shocking. I would say that is a far cry from awful though.

It is also not shocking that he shot worse against Zo and Mutombo than anybody else, because they were elite defensive centers, some of the best of all time.

[ImKobe]

25/12/4 on 48%FG is awful?

I will give you that he was awful by his standards in Game 6 & 7 of the WCF, averaging 18/10 with 3.5 TOs on 46% shooting and 0.5 bpg in 48 mpg vs Kobe averaging 29/7/7 with 2 spg 3.5 bpg with 2.2 TO on 49%FG with 54% from 3

[Elosha]

4/6 brah: Hakeem & Kobe happened

Shaq was very impressive in the finals. Should be noted he had two great SGs to help him. Also can't forget the six times his teams got swept in the playoffs.

You can criticize Wilt for his failings, but Shaq and Kareem had failings as well. So did Bird, Magic, Lebron, Kobe, Duncan (missed layup, first round exits).

Russell is about the only one who gets a pass.

I agree with you to some extent, you can criticize any all-time player for playoff failures, with the possible exception of Russell. (Although Lazeruss would point out that Wilt did get him once with the 76ers and he went out rather meekly). However, I do think as great as Russell was, he was bailed out by some pretty lucky/skilled teammates along the way. How many game-winners did Sam Jones hit during the Celtics run? I have all the respect in the world for Russell, but I honestly don't believe he would have been nearly as successful had he been on any other team but the Celtics. He was put into the perfect situation for a defensive mind/intangible skills center, and he made the most of it. That's why I'll put him in my top ten, but I honestly believe a number of centers are on par or better than him on an individual level. Can't argue with his huge impact or success though.

[Elosha]

Here are Shaq's splits against HOF centers in his 1999-2000 season.

2 games vs. Patrick Ewing: 38.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.5 apg on 54.2 %FG/56.1 %TS
2 games vs. Ben Wallace: 33.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 6.0 apg on 68.4 %FG/68.0 %TS
3 games vs. David Robinson: 28.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.3 apg on 63.6 %FG/63.1 %TS
2 games vs. Alonzo Mourning: 22.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 5.0 apg on 43.6 %FG/48.0 %TS
4 games vs. Arvydas Sabonis: 20.5 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 50.0 %FG/49.7 %TS
3 games vs. Hakeem Olajuwon: 19.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 49.1 %FG/48.2 %TS
2 games vs. Dikembe Mutombo: 16.0 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 3.5 apg on 39.5 %FG/37.0 %TS

in 18 season games against HOF centers: 24.7 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.7 apg on 47.8 %FG/49.1 %TS

In 79 season games against the entire league: 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg on 57.4 FG%/57.8 TS%

2000 WCF 7 games against Arvydas Sabonis: 25.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 4.3 apg on 53.7 %FG/55.0 %TS




Mind you except Mourning and Mutombo none of those other guys are even in their primes. This honestly makes me reconsider his place on the all-time list a bit.

Seriously, don't you think this is way out of context and far too small of samples to actually matter? He only played Mutumbo three times in 2000, how is that an adequate sampling? Especially when you consider that a mere year later, he ate Mutumbo's soul in five games in the Finals. Which of those comparisons do you think holds more weight, 3 meaningless regular season games or the NBA Finals? As for Olajuwon, again he might not have put up big numbers in 2000, but he destroyed him at other points, including the playoffs while Shaq was a Laker. Which holds more weight? Likewise, Shaq had great success against Sabonis on many occasions; same with Mourning.

You could literally do the same type of microcosmic analysis for any great player and often get such skewed results.

[eliteballer]

When Shaq was a young pup in the 90's he destroyed everybody.

ISHiot thread.

[hitmanyr2k]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

That's nothing compared to what John Salley got. Got a foul called on him for taking a vicious elbow to the head It was one of the most ridiculous fouls I've ever seen.

https://youtu.be/CJarXDGBTrI?t=3m46s