The top 25 players from 2000-2009

[ShaqAttack3234]

Fixed!

Regarding 2005, did you put Kobe at number 1 to distract me from your equally absurd choice of Lebron at number 2?

What makes these players better than Duncan, KG or Shaq at this time?

Kobe's Lakers finished 34-48, and he struggled in the ball-dominant role Rudy T had him in. Frank Hamblen replaced Rudy T and started bringing the triangle back, while Kobe's efficiency was back to normal under Hamblen, the Lakers went just 9-23 after his return, and he went just 3-13 without Lamar Odom. He finished with his lowest FG as a starter until this year at 43.3% and a career worst 4.1 TO per game. Kobe's mid-range game also wasn't nearly as strong as usual. Kobe's subpar defense caused him to get left off the all-defensive team, which has been almost automatic for him,

I'm not one to rely on these sort of things since they're still just subjective opinions, but when is the last time a supposed best player didn't receive a single MVP point and finished on the all-nba 3rd team)?

Lebron still lacked a mid-range jumper at 37% from 16-23 feet, and lacked a polished offensive skill set. He was also a poor defender back then. This wasn't prime Lebron leading teams to 50+ wins, his team finished 42-40 in the East, and missed the playoffs.

Kevin Garnett was the victim of a poor team, but went 44-38, far more respectable than Kobe. Garnett also won more games than Lebron in a tougher conference. KG was relatively close to the level he had played at the previous season.

Garnett averaged 22/14/6 with 1.4 bpg and 1.5 spg on 50% shooting, and we know his defense was far beyond Kobe or Lebron's especially in '05. Cassell had dropped to a 14/3/5, 47 FG% player who played just 59 games. Sprewell also dropped to a 13/3/2 player. Both Cassell and Sprewell distracted the team with contract disputes.

Shaq instantly transformed Miami into a 59 win team and a contender. He averaged 23/10/3, 2.3 bpg on 60% in 34 mpg. There was nobody in the league who had that presence at that time, made team's adjust to their defenses so much or was as tough to match up with 1 on 1.

Wade made quotes like this throughout the '04-'05 season and it's an example of why Shaq's impact goes well beyond numbers.

"Everyone is focused on him," Wade said. "I've never seen anyone get the attention he does. When Shaq's on the floor, thing open up for me. It's been a little easier for me to pick and choose my spots. The attention that he draws makes things a lot easier when he's on the floor."

Shaq as a shot blocker and 7'1" presence, made a far greater defensive impact than Bryant or James did as perimeter players who didn't appear particularly interested in defending that season.

And finally we have Duncan. He was at his usual 20/11/3, 2.6 bpg in 33 mpg, and arguably the league's best defensive player as well as one of the top post scorers and better passing big men like KG and Shaq.

He led the Spurs to another championship despite playing through injuries, and still managed 23/12/3 with 2.3 bpg,

As far as '06? Kobe was the best. What did Lebron do to deserve to be ranked over him. Kobe led his team to a 45-35 record when he played in the West, while Lebron's Cavs weren't that much better in an inferior conference at 47-32 in the games Lebron played.

Kobe did this without having a consistent teammate until the second half of the season. Aside from Lamar Odom, he didn't have one player who you could call a legitimate starter, and once Odom started playing consistently in the second half(16/9/6, 53 FG% vs 14/9/5, 45 FG% 1st half), the Lakers finished the year 19-11, a 52 win pace, including an 11-3 finish to the season. Odom was also forced into the role of their second best player by far averaging 40 mpg, while he's a player who is clearly more comfortable as a third option.

To put Kobe's cast in perspective, Phil Jackson who is obviously a team first guy(hence the triangle), told Kobe from the start of the season he was going to have to carry them for the Lakers to compete due to the limited talent and the younger players learning the triangle. Kobe responded with a 35/5/5 season including arguably the 2 greatest volume scoring feats we've seen of 81 and 62 in 3 quarters. He was also still capable of locking down elite scorers as he had memorable defensive games vs Ray Allen and Vince Carter, while also taking the challenge vs players like T-Mac, Wade and Lebron, iirc. He was the better defender than Wade, and especially Lebron while clearly being the better scorer.

Wade did win a title, but he had a team, unlike Kobe. I could definitely see Kobe winning a title given the right cast, but I don't see Wade carrying a team like Kobe did. His mid-range game was improving, but he wasn't the polished player Kobe was. And while he was the man on his team, he also benefited from Shaq's presence, he shot 51.6% in 54 games with Shaq and just 44.7% in 21 games without him, and he was just 10-11 without him despite having a great backup center in Zo who averaged 12/9 with 4 bpg as a starter, in addition to more quality NBA players than Bryant had, even without Shaq.

And I know damn well you'll be the first to argue Lebron over Kobe in '09 and '10 when Kobe was winning titles.

And in the postseason, Kobe immediately switched approaches, after being told to carry the team all year, and succeeding, he changed his approach to a facilitator and even somewhat of a decoy, and nearly upset a superior Suns team.

Lebron first in '07? Remember his shooting. 34% from 16-23 feet, 32% on 3s and 70% from the line, this was exposed in a 35%, near 6 TO finals series. I've already made the case for Kobe in a previous post, Gifted Mind did the honors for Duncan, Lebron has no case over those players.|

And why is Lebron over Kobe in '08? Kobe was the better scorer and better defender, plus, he did a phenomenal job as a playmaker and he really elevated his teammates games that year closing that gap in that area which is usually Lebron's biggest advantage. Kobe also didn't have a hole in his game like Lebron's jumper, which was again exposed in the playoffs. Despite his big game 7, he had another 36 FG% and 5+ TO series. Kobe meanwhile led the Lakers to the best record ina West where every playoff team won at least 50+ games despite only having Gasol for 26 games and Bynum for just 35(neither at the same time), with Gasol, they were almost unbeatable(22-4), which shows the level Kobe was at and what he could do with some legitimate help. They overachieved for most of the season before Gasol. And he destroyed the West averaging 32/6/6 on 51% through the first 3 rounds. He was facilitating early, getting everyone involved and taking over effortlessly like clockwork when he had to.

2. You underrated http://www.basketball-reference.com/...er_top_10.html that guy to HELL....

What is this shit supposed to mean? You linked PER numbers, am I supposed to care? That's just a made up formula stat, which is nothing more than subjective values given to each area and mashed up into one pile of shit for people too lazy to watch basketball and analyze the game.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. Kobe was phenomenal in 2007, and both Kobe and Duncan were capable of leading their teams to the championship. And it is extremely close in deciding which one of them was a better player. But if my goal was to win, the qualities Duncan brings is easier to build around and more important to win. He was the best defensive player in the NBA in 2007 while highly efficient on offense shooting 55% with 20ppg and grabbing over 10 rebounds. Do you honestly believe what Kobe brings is more valuable than Duncan for winning a championship? That is the question. I mean think about that, good and highly efficient low-post scoring, strong rebounding, and the best defense in the league. What is more important than this when it comes to winning? Even I need to think it over.

You're right, it's very close, I would say it might be easier to find the necessary players to put around Duncan because it's typically been harder to find the franchise big man, and anchoring a top defense while being a guy you can throw the ball to for an efficient quality shot or a double team trusting he'll make the right pass is invaluable.

At the same time, we have seen teams build championship teams differently than how we're used to in recent years.

If this was '02/'03 Duncan with that extra athleticism and stamina to average 25/13 and play 40 mpg or flirt with quad doubles and 30/20 games, I'm taking Duncan.

But while '07 Duncan still provided many of the same things, at 31, I think he lacked some of the stamina and wasn't quite as dominant, making it closer.

These 2 players are the first 2 I'd choose to build a team around with just the '07 season in mind. I might take Duncan first depending on what type of teammates I can acquire, but I'm not sure Kobe needed more help at this stage. Are Gasol, Odom and a few quality role players better than Manu, Parker and a few quality role players? The Spurs '07 team probably had an extra 1 or 2 role players than what LA had in '08 and '09. So I think you'll need a pretty comparable support around these players.

I don't have a problem with someone taking Duncan, you make a good case for him. In the end, we both agree that you'll contend, and have a great shot at a title with a quality team around either player.

[StateOfMind12]

The playoffs are a different story, though. He was a Spur killer every year he played them except '99 and '03, but he didn't have his best series vs Houston in '09. And simply playing a team from Texas doesn't convince me.

I don't blame him for not playing well against the Rockets or not elevating his play considering how he went up against the two best perimeter defenders since MJ and Pippen with Battier and Artest. Kobe still played well but Kobe still destroyed the Mavericks back in his prime in '03-'09.

Well, you listed some really good players, Several of those series don't belong in the same class as T-Mac's, though. Manu only averaged 21/4/2, although his shooting % were 49/41/87. West averaged 23/7/3 on 48%.

The point is that all of those players that I had listed put up numbers way better and way beyond their averages which is my point about how Dallas more than likely let the star player get theirs but stop everyone else specifically the role players. If it wasn't then it was obvious that elite players would still get big numbers which would mean that their defense was weak and couldn't contain star play.

I did have Yao higher in '09, above some of those perimeter players, but I don't think he has the same case as Dwight. For one, he wasn't the defensive player Dwight was, or nearly as mobile or durable.

Plus, the injury in the playoffs was a factor. And I really noticed teams often taking Yao out of games by fronting him at times, and entry passes couldn't be low. But I think it's fair to put him up at 7 above Rpy and Deron. I can't put him any higher than that though.

I have no problem putting Yao below Dwight although I would give Yao the slight edge over Dwight due to the superior and more reliable offense but I would put Yao above Dirk.

I'd take Yao over Dirk just because of the superior all-around game. Dirk was the better scorer/shooter obviously but I don't think it was by much and I think Yao's advantages defensively, on the boards, passing, etc. gives him the edge over Dirk. I have never been a fan of one-dimensional players or players close to it and that was what Dirk honestly was and that was what he honestly was for most of his career. He put up decent rebounding numbers only when he paired up with terrible Centers like Erick Dampier or DeSagna Diop. When Dirk played with Chandler and Haywood, his rebounds were mediocre at best.

As for the fronting part, I think it has more to do with the fact that he had no passers on his teams at least when McGrady went down. The best passer on the team at least in terms of entry pass was Shane Battier and he was literally just standing in the corner on offense. Aaron Brooks couldn't pass and never could pass to save his life. There was also no slasher on the team to make Yao's life easier, McGrady was that player in his first season there but McGrady declined and became a shell of his former self after 2005 and he was no longer there at all in the 2009 season. Yao really had to earn every single one of his points and he did a pretty good job at it and was extremely efficient at it.

Plus, Yao was always doubled when he was fronted which left somebody on his team for a dead open 3 or mid-range shot which is the benefit of his presence. I don't remember Yao ever being fronted 1 on 1 and being taken out of the game because of it. He was always doubled in his fronts and because of that nobody passed him the ball but I also remember that nobody really had the capability to pass him the ball in the fronts except Battier. Battier was the only one I remember that passed it to Yao despite a front and Yao got an easy layup/dunk.

The fronting issue was a combination of his lack of passers/slashers on the team and also double teams. Honestly, I think if Alston was still on that 2009 season in the 2nd half, Yao's life would have been easier since he was like 100x the passer Brooks ever was and ever will be.

I got no problem with Howard over Yao but I would give Yao the nod over Dirk.

[b1imtf]

2000
1. shaquille o'neal
2. kobe bryant
3. tim duncan
4. alonzo mourning
5. kevin garnett
6. gary payton
7. chris webber
8. karl malone
9. david robinson
10. jason kidd
11. allen iverson
12. terrell brandon
13. eddie jones
14. scottie pippen
15. anfernee hardaway
16. rasheed wallace
17. vince carter
18. jalen rose
19. michael finley
20. john stockton
21. derrick coleman
22. stephon marbury
23. sam cassell
24. latrell sprewell
25. reggie miller

2001
1. shaquille o'neal
2. kobe bryant
3. allen iverson
4. tim duncan
5. vince carter
6. chris webber
7. tracy mcgrady
8. kevin garnett
9. gary payton
10. david robinson
11. ray allen
12. jason kidd
13. dikembe mutombo
14. karl malone
15. steve francis
16. baron davis
17. jamal mashburn
18. antoine walker
19. glenn robinson
20. dirk nowitzki
21. sam cassell
22. john stockton
23. antonio mcdyess
24. paul pierce
25. michael finley

2002
1. shaquille o'neal
2. tim duncan
3. kobe bryant
4. chris webber
5. jason kidd
6. paul pierce
7. allen iverson
8. baron davis
9. kevin garnett
10. gary payton
11. tracy mcgrady
12. dirk nowitzki
13. antoine walker
14. ben wallace
15. vince carter
16. elton brand
17. karl malone
18. andre miller
19. michael jordan
20. shawn marion
21. kenyon martin
22. john stockton
23. sam cassell
24. steve francis
25. jamal mashburn

2003
1. tim duncan
2. kevin garnett
3. shaquille o'neal
4. jason kidd
5. kobe bryant
6. dirk nowitzki
7. ben wallace
8. tracy mcgrady
9. allen iverson
10. chris webber
11. paul pierce
12. jermaine o'neal
13. kenyon martin
14. shawn marion
15. steve francis
16. gary payton
17. elton brand
18. baron davis
19. steve nash
20. jamal mashburn
21. stephon marbury
22. karl malone
23. michael finley
24. antoine walker
25. ray allen

2004
1. kevin garnett
2. shaquille o'neal
3. tim duncan
4. ben wallace
5. kobe bryant
6. jermaine o'neal
7. andrei kirilenko
8. jason kidd
9. ron artest
10. baron davis
11. rasheed wallace
12. dirk nowitzki
13. allen iverson
14. chauncey billups
15. rip hamilton
16. sam cassell
17. kenyon martin
18. mike bibby
19. elton brand
20. tracy mcgrady
21. lebron james
22. shawn marion
23. vince carter
24. peja stojakovic
25. lamar odom

2005
1. tim duncan
2. dwyane wade
3. kevin garnett
4. lebron james
5. tracy mcgrady
6. dirk nowitzki
7. amare stoudemire
8. shawn marion
9. steve nash
10. ben wallace
11. shaquille o'neal
12. allen iverson
13. manu ginobili
14. kobe bryant
15. chauncey billups
16. larry hughes
17. paul pierce
18. jermaine o'neal
19. gilbert arenas
20. elton brand
21. rasheed wallace
22. tony parker
23. ray allen
24. andrei kirilenko
25. rip hamilton

2006
1. dwyane wade
2. lebron james
3. dirk nowitzki
4. elton brand
5. tim duncan
6. shawn marion
7. allen iverson
8. andrei kirilenko
9. kobe bryant
10. chauncey billups
11. vince carter
12. kevin garnett
13. gilbert arenas
14. jason kidd
15. steve nash
16. shaquille o'neal
17. ben wallace
18. tracy mcgrady
19. marcus camby
20. chris paul
21. pau gasol
22. rasheed wallace
23. boris diaw
24. jermaine o'neal
25. paul pierce

2007
1. tim duncan
2. lebron james
3. tracy mcgrady
4. jason kidd
5. dirk nowitzki
6. kevin garnett
7. steve nash
8. shawn marion
9. elton brand
10. baron davis
11. tony parker
12. gilbert arenas
13. dwyane wade
14. carlos boozer
15. amare stoudemire
16. manu ginobili
17. deron williams
18. chauncey billups
19. kobe bryant
20. marcus camby
21. chris paul
22. vince carter
23. yao ming
24. josh smith
25. jermaine o'neal

2008
1. chris paul
2. lebron james
3. kevin garnett
4. kobe bryant
5. tim duncan
6. dwight howard
7. yao ming
8. paul pierce
9. pau gasol
10. david west
11. baron davis
12. tracy mcgrady
13. deron williams
14. dirk nowitzki
15. josh smith
16. lamar odom
17. amare stoudemire
18. rajon rondo
19. chauncey billups
20. rasheed wallace
21. tony parker
22. jason kidd
23. caron butler
24. carlos boozer
25. rip hamilton

2009
1. lebron james
2. dwight howard
3. kobe bryant
4. dwyane wade
5. chris paul
6. pau gasol
7. rajon rondo
8. dirk nowitzki
9. carmelo anthony
10. brandon roy
11. tim duncan
12. kevin garnett
13. deron williams
14. chauncey billups
15. jason kidd
16. tony parker
17. yao ming
18. rashard lewis
19. lamar odom
20. andre iguodala
21. josh smith
22. devin harris
23. lamarcus aldridge
24. chris bosh
25. hedo turkoglu

******

[WockaVodka]

I'm not a KG hater at the slightest but he surely was not the 2nd best player in 2005.

[magnax1]

I'm not a KG hater at the slightest but he surely was not the 2nd best player in 2005.

I don;t know how one could make a case that he wasn't at least 2. I have him ranked 2 behind Duncan, but I just don't know how he gets lower then that.

[WockaVodka]

I don;t know how one could make a case that he wasn't at least 2. I have him ranked 2 behind Duncan, but I just don't know how he gets lower then that.

He missed the post-season that season and the team was pretty similar to the 2004 team except for Cassell being hurt. Cassell for like 15 games is the difference between a 1st seed and a 9th seed?

[magnax1]

He missed the post-season that season and the team was pretty similar to the 2004 team except for Cassell being hurt. Cassell for like 15 games is the difference between a 1st seed and a 9th seed?

Not really that similar at all. Sprewell didn't play well, Cassell didn't play well when he was in the game so him missing 20 games isn't the whole story, and those 04 05 teams really had no depth other then KG, Cassell, and Sprewell anyway, so when two out of three played pretty poorly is kind of screwed the team.
I don't know how you watch 05 KG and think there is some big decline though. he was worse in 05 by small margins, but what exactly do you think he did that made a 15ish difference in wins from 04? Because I surely don't see it.

[WockaVodka]

Not really that similar at all. Sprewell didn't play well, Cassell didn't play well when he was in the game so him missing 20 games isn't the whole story, and those 04 05 teams really had no depth other then KG, Cassell, and Sprewell anyway, so when two out of three played pretty poorly is kind of screwed the team.
I don't know how you watch 05 KG and think there is some big decline though. he was worse in 05 by small margins, but what exactly do you think he did that made a 15ish difference in wins from 04? Because I surely don't see it.

I just thought Shaq was better that season. I suppose Top 3 is alright but I think Duncan and Shaq were quite clearly #1 and #2.

[Boston C's]

I wanna put ray allen in the top 10 in 2005 but its hard to take someone out of there...the season the sonics had along with what he had to work with in the playoffs was remarkable with how he carried them i feel though that he was a top 10 player that yr but it could be my homerism coming out

[Gifted Mind]

Just another key stat supporting Duncan for 2007, the +/- for him that season was +14.9, #1 in the league. For Kobe it was +7.6. Notice, this was with Ginobili coming off the bench most of the season, while Parker's +/- was +8.1.


Not always the most telling stat, but clearly shows 2007 Duncan was still a very impacting player.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I don't blame him for not playing well against the Rockets or not elevating his play considering how he went up against the two best perimeter defenders since MJ and Pippen with Battier and Artest. Kobe still played well but Kobe still destroyed the Mavericks back in his prime in '03-'09.

'05 Kobe was noticeably less effective than other years during that time. Playing the way he was, I don't see him having the same success as T-Mac in that particular year. He obviously still had the ability to go off and have a great series, but I don't think Kobe would have gotten 50+ wins with that Rocket team playing the way he was that season. '03 Kobe? Or '06-'09 Kobe? That's a different story.

The point is that all of those players that I had listed put up numbers way better and way beyond their averages which is my point about how Dallas more than likely let the star player get theirs but stop everyone else specifically the role players. If it wasn't then it was obvious that elite players would still get big numbers which would mean that their defense was weak and couldn't contain star play.

I haven't really noticed this trend before, there may be something to it, but all I know is that I was impressed with T-Mac's play that series in every aspect of the game.

]I have no problem putting Yao below Dwight although I would give Yao the slight edge over Dwight due to the superior and more reliable offense but I would put Yao above Dirk.

I'd take Yao over Dirk just because of the superior all-around game. Dirk was the better scorer/shooter obviously but I don't think it was by much and I think Yao's advantages defensively, on the boards, passing, etc. gives him the edge over Dirk. I have never been a fan of one-dimensional players or players close to it and that was what Dirk honestly was and that was what he honestly was for most of his career. He put up decent rebounding numbers only when he paired up with terrible Centers like Erick Dampier or DeSagna Diop. When Dirk played with Chandler and Haywood, his rebounds were mediocre at best.

As for the fronting part, I think it has more to do with the fact that he had no passers on his teams at least when McGrady went down. The best passer on the team at least in terms of entry pass was Shane Battier and he was literally just standing in the corner on offense. Aaron Brooks couldn't pass and never could pass to save his life. There was also no slasher on the team to make Yao's life easier, McGrady was that player in his first season there but McGrady declined and became a shell of his former self after 2005 and he was no longer there at all in the 2009 season. Yao really had to earn every single one of his points and he did a pretty good job at it and was extremely efficient at it.

Plus, Yao was always doubled when he was fronted which left somebody on his team for a dead open 3 or mid-range shot which is the benefit of his presence. I don't remember Yao ever being fronted 1 on 1 and being taken out of the game because of it. He was always doubled in his fronts and because of that nobody passed him the ball but I also remember that nobody really had the capability to pass him the ball in the fronts except Battier. Battier was the only one I remember that passed it to Yao despite a front and Yao got an easy layup/dunk.

The fronting issue was a combination of his lack of passers/slashers on the team and also double teams. Honestly, I think if Alston was still on that 2009 season in the 2nd half, Yao's life would have been easier since he was like 100x the passer Brooks ever was and ever will be.

I got no problem with Howard over Yao but I would give Yao the nod over Dirk.

This is a solid post, but I thought Dirk was really good this year, he was great all year after a sort of quiet(by his standards) '08 season and started restoring his reputation with his play this year. And he was amazing vs Denver. I think he actually has a solid case over Dwight as well. There's probably not a big difference between all 3 in impact, but Yao going down in the playoffs doesn't help.

I did give Yao credit for the defensive attention he received, that does make a big difference.

Not really that similar at all. Sprewell didn't play well, Cassell didn't play well when he was in the game so him missing 20 games isn't the whole story, and those 04 05 teams really had no depth other then KG, Cassell, and Sprewell anyway, so when two out of three played pretty poorly is kind of screwed the team.
I don't know how you watch 05 KG and think there is some big decline though. he was worse in 05 by small margins, but what exactly do you think he did that made a 15ish difference in wins from 04? Because I surely don't see it.

I agree, I thought he was just a bit above his other seasons during '04 and '03, but he was pretty much as good as '05 as he was in any other season.

His cast was weak due to Cassell and Sprewell declining noticeably and Cassell missing games. the fact that he went from a 20/7, 49 FG%, 40 3P%, 87 FT% all-nba second team guard who averaged 14/5 on 46%, and he came off the bench for 21 games.

Sprewell dropped from 17/4/4 and a season where some thought he deserved an all-star selection(though I'm not sure he was still at that level myself) to a 13/3/2 player.

Though he did have Wally who was a good player and an offensive threat, Trenton Hassell was a good role player and Troy Hudson was fine for a role player.

But you need much more out of Cassell and Sprewell to contend. If Cassell and Sprewell are at their '04 level without the contract disputes, I have little doubt KG is contending that year.

[StateOfMind12]

This is a solid post, but I thought Dirk was really good this year, he was great all year after a sort of quiet(by his standards) '08 season and started restoring his reputation with his play this year. And he was amazing vs Denver. I think he actually has a solid case over Dwight as well. There's probably not a big difference between all 3 in impact, but Yao going down in the playoffs doesn't help.

I did give Yao credit for the defensive attention he received, that does make a big difference.

Well I'm not really sure if I gave you enough to also convince you that Yao should be above Dirk but I personally do not think it makes much sense to have Dwight be #1 in the group, Dirk #2, and Yao at #3. I actually don't think it makes much sense to put him Yao at #3 of the two.

Dirk is the best offensive player in the group but the worst defensive player of the group. Dwight is the best defensive player in the group but the worst offensive player in the group. Yao gives you pretty much the best of both worlds of the two. He is just #2 at like everything between those two except like passing. That is really the only aspect I think he is better than both of those two in and also low-post/interior scoring but Dirk isn't too shabby himself.

If you value offense/scoring the most, the three should be...

1. Dirk
2. Yao
3. Howard

If you value defense the most, the three should be....

1. Howard
2. Yao
3. Dirk

If you value all-around games the most which I do, the three should be

1. Yao
2. Howard
3. Dirk

I guess if you want to give the edge to Dirk due to durability, it makes some sense. Although I don't feel like it is right to punish Yao for missing 3-4 last playoff games especially when he made more of an impact and was just the better overall player than Dirk was that season.

I'm assuming it didn't convince you though since you didn't edit your original list, lol.

[unbreakable]

do a point system... tim duncan up top damn near every year

goat player 2000-2009.

[Dukem]

I'd have to say he'd have a shot at top 3-4. I was tempted to put him higher anyway for being the star player on a team that was probably a shot away from a championship, and for how great the Kings offense was running through Webber.

But at the same time, I have to remember they were a stacked team. 7 players in double figures in that era is amazing. Aside from Webber, there was another 20+ ppg scorer in Peja who was the best pure shooter at the time not named Ray Allen and he fit well in the offense since he moved well without the ball, and was also pretty good in the mid-post area. Mike Bibby also proved to be one of the best scoring point guards and another shooter when he stepped up and averaged 20+ in the playoffs while hitting huge shots, and while he had the skills to play point guard, he was good without the ball which made him the ideal fit with the offense running through Webber and Vlade. Doug Christie was a very well rounded 2 guard known for his defense, but he could handle the ball, was a good passer and a solid shooter. Vlade was one of the most skilled centers, who may have been one of the 2 best passing big men along with Webber, he had a good post game, but could hit mid-range shots, was a solid rebounder, and despite the flopping, he was a pesky defender who could make an impact at that end drawing charges, stripping the post and knocking away entry passes with his good hands and blocking some shots. Bobby Jackson was an excellent scoring point guard and a good shooter, and one of four Kings capable of averaging 20 ppg. He averaged 11 ppg in just 22 mpg, but he got a chance to start 26 games the following season and averaged 20/5/4 on 50% shooting as a starter. Hedo was also a double digit scorer in 24 mpg off the bench and a versatile 6'9" small forward who could handle the ball, pass, create off the dribble and shoot. He averaged 17/7/3 in his 10 starts that year. Scott Pollard was also a solid backup big man and physical role player who rebounded well.

They also had one of the all-time great coaches in Rick Adleman. Aside from mental toughness, they didn't have a weakness. That's just an incredible collection of talent. One of the teams that can accurately be described as stacked. The only other early 00's team that arguably had that much talent was the 2000 Blazers.

So while winning a title would have helped Webber's ranking, it wouldn't have gotten him over Shaq and Duncan. Who I also think were clearly better players regardless of accomplishments.



Thanks, but 2000? T-Mac was still in Toronto then, and while he was showing a lot of potential that season, he wasn't a legitimate all-star player bordering on superstar level like Kobe was at that time.

Yeah had the Kings won the title in 2002, i'd rank Webber behind Shaq and Duncan. It's a shame that Webber had that injury in 2003 mind you, as I truly believe that they would have won the title in 2003 had he not gotten injured.

Sorry I was looking at your 2000 list and accidently put in 2000. I was mean't to say 2004 for T-Mac but even then, Kobe and T-mac for were evenly match in 2004 (maybe Kobe over T-mac slightly actually now looking back on it) and T-Mac only just ahead of Kobe in 2003...the rest of the time, Kobe was clearly the better player.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Well I'm not really sure if I gave you enough to also convince you that Yao should be above Dirk but I personally do not think it makes much sense to have Dwight be #1 in the group, Dirk #2, and Yao at #3. I actually don't think it makes much sense to put him Yao at #3 of the two.

Dirk is the best offensive player in the group but the worst defensive player of the group. Dwight is the best defensive player in the group but the worst offensive player in the group. Yao gives you pretty much the best of both worlds of the two. He is just #2 at like everything between those two except like passing. That is really the only aspect I think he is better than both of those two in and also low-post/interior scoring but Dirk isn't too shabby himself.

If you value offense/scoring the most, the three should be...

1. Dirk
2. Yao
3. Howard

If you value defense the most, the three should be....

1. Howard
2. Yao
3. Dirk

If you value all-around games the most which I do, the three should be

1. Yao
2. Howard
3. Dirk

I guess if you want to give the edge to Dirk due to durability, it makes some sense. Although I don't feel like it is right to punish Yao for missing 3-4 last playoff games especially when he made more of an impact and was just the better overall player than Dirk was that season.

I'm assuming it didn't convince you though since you didn't edit your original list, lol.

I don't think Yao being the 2nd best offensive and defensive player out of the 3 automatically makes him 2nd. I go primarily by who impressed me on the court most that year, and who I thought made more of an impact from what I saw. Yao was a presence defensively in the paint, and a shot blocker, but he had his limitations due to his mobility. Dwight was the only one out of the 3 that could single-handedly turn a poor/mediocre defense into an elite one, imo. Yao was the better offensive player because he clearly had the better post game, demanded more defensive attention, made his free throws, and he was a better pass. But Dwight actually scored more on a better FG% in both the regular season and playoffs because of his ability to run the floor, get offensive rebounds, finish, and despite his game still being fairly raw, he had developed confidence that year facing up and going to his running hook.

Dirk on the other hand did not have as much of a defensive impact as Yao, but he was a pretty average defender by that point. And he was the only one out of the 3 that truly had the ability to truly carry a team offensively. Yao had that ability in '07, though.

Plus, both Howard and Dirk seemed to have the ability to play more minutes for their teams. We saw what happened when Adelman tried to play Yao 37 mpg in '08.

Dwight at 5 and Dirk at 6 just makes sense to me based on how I saw them impact games, and their postseason performances.

Yeah had the Kings won the title in 2002, i'd rank Webber behind Shaq and Duncan. It's a shame that Webber had that injury in 2003 mind you, as I truly believe that they would have won the title in 2003 had he not gotten injured.

Amazingly, the Kings won 59 games in '03 while rarely having their full lineup.

Mike Bibby missed the first 27 games of the season, Peja missed 10 games and Bobby Jackson missed a 21 game stretch that started just 5 games into Bibby's return, then Webber missed a 10 game stretch that started while Jackson was still out, and Webber had missed 5 games earlier in the year.

So they really didn't have their full core until the last 26 games of the season when they went 21-5.

Sorry I was looking at your 2000 list and accidently put in 2000. I was mean't to say 2004 for T-Mac but even then, Kobe and T-mac for were evenly match in 2004 (maybe Kobe over T-mac slightly actually now looking back on it) and T-Mac only just ahead of Kobe in 2003...the rest of the time, Kobe was clearly the better player.

T-Mac did have a case over Kobe based on individual play, but I was barely comfortable as it was putting a player top 5 when his team won just over 20 games and finished with the worst record. It's easy to forget, but Kobe did make the finals and play very well after the all-star break while also having a strong series vs the Spurs and a pretty good one vs Minnesota. His approach in the finals was inexcusable and he had his struggles throughout that year, but making the finals is still an accomplishment. Especially since the Lakers didn't turn out to be the super team some imagined due to Malone's injury that kept him out half the season and pretty much made him incapable of playing in the finals, while Payton was declining and a poor fit in the triangle offense. Kobe also has more excuses for his struggles, while T-Mac admittedly didn't always give 100%.

It's debatable when I think about it, but Kobe is the better choice, imo.

But you don't think T-Mac had a case over Kobe in '05? T-Mac impressed me more than in '04, while Kobe had another down year, this time without the team success unlike '04, while T-Mac led Houston to 51 wins.