If Lebron continues to play at this level

[Hands of Iron]

im not saying that it isnt a great achievement, it really is. im just saying that TS% is a better indicator of shooting effieciency that looking at FG%, FT%, and 3pt%

Ah, fair enough. I really just more or less responded to what OldSchoolBBall said in regards to Bird by expanding upon his defense and fleshing out some of his accomplishments more than trying to say "Bird's better because of this..." -- I think Lebron would actually get the edge in terms of production everything considered, while I do without hesistation regard Bird as the more skilled player. Visually from watching games as well as the fact that there's no way he could be in this conversation if he weren't, as there was quite a lot left to be desired from an athletic standpoint. Lebron is one of the GOAT athletes and GOAT finishers at the rim. That's a lethal combination. Just look at how much more efficient of a scorer Shaq was than Hakeem despite the difference in skills. That isn't to say Lebron doesn't have skills or his all-around game hasn't improved.

[Round Mound]

Lets Anaylze Them

[COLOR="Blue"]Lebron is a Better Pure Scorer (more versatile scorer)

Lebron is a Better Slasher and Driver (better ballhandler, faster, quicker and more potent)

Lebron is a Better Dunker and Finisher at The Rim (stronger upper torso more power)

Lebron is a Better Defender on SFs NOT PFs (*Bird had The Highest DRT and DWS for a SF in the 80s)

Lebron is a Better Ballhandler and Offense Creator (the best ever as an open court player IMO)

Lebron is a Better Full Court Player (athletic abilities)[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Bird Was Was Better Pure Shooter (far range, close range, mid range etc)

Bird Was a Better Rebounder (Yes he average 15.3 RPG vs Moses in the 1981 Finals)

Bird was a Better Pure Passer (just watch the videos especially at half court)

Bird was Better Low Post Defender on PFs (See*)

Bird was Better Team Defender (would get many steals since today many teams play zone d)

Bird was Better 3-Point Shooter

Bird was A Better Post Player and Half Court Player (though Lebron has improoved)

Bird had The Better B-Ball IQ and Fundamentals (more Crafty and Skilled at Everything but Ballhandling)[/COLOR]

I think They Are Close...I Think Both of Them are The Best SFs Ever but Different Style of Play. One is a SG/SF/PF Hybrid The Other is a Point-Forward

In the Next 5-7 Years Lebron has Chance to Be the Best SF Ever

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

until he's 31, will you ish poster consider him better than Bird? Best SF of all time?
Imo right now it can already be argued, The only thing thats keeping him from getting that title are accolades.

no, it CAN'T be argued... except by the young ignorant masses of ISH.

[EllisGW]

what is the point of this thread when bird said lebron is better than him

[Pointguard]

Was his first year, when he was about 23; turning around the Celtics from the 2nd worst team to the best record in the league; and coming 4th in MVP voting IIRC; making All-NBA first team and Rookie team.

And your point is ridiculous; by what measure is Bird a scorer and Lebron isn't?

In his first year Bird wasn't ready for the playoffs and I did stress real big super year. It took awhile before Bird was better than Maxwell in the playoffs. Its very different if the majority of the people here knew who Maxwell was. If Lebron had that type of year after he was 20 people would wonder what was wrong with him.

On to your second point, people actually don't call Lebron a scorer cause its not what he sets out to do when he's on the court. On this board the top three scorers are Durant, Kobe and Wade over the last three years. If Lebron is hot he doesn't try to score the whole game and will more than likely pass more. I guess that's the distinction. Greg Anthony just said last week that Lebron isn't considered a scorer because that's not what he does best.

[Pointguard]

A whole new dimension? He barreled in for layups, Okc made no adjustments..
Not sure what series you were watching
Not hating on bron, it's great that he finally won something, but ppl claiming he's now great in the post/clutch are kidding themselves..

Funny, I never said posting up but you knew right away what I was talking about. So we must have been watching the same series.
I never said he did it great either but you went there, so these things are obviously on your mind while they weren't on mine.

If a player was tops in the league in fourth quarter scoring, and top five over a five year span in percentage in close games - you clutch. If you have some of the best games in recent playoff history - you clutch. If you scored 26 of your teams last points on a stellar defensive team and win, you clutch. No player was close to being clutch all the time.

[Pointguard]

Lets Anaylze Them

[COLOR="Blue"]Lebron is a Better Pure Scorer (more versatile scorer)

Lebron is a Better Slasher and Driver (better ballhandler, faster, quicker and more potent)

Lebron is a Better Dunker and Finisher at The Rim (stronger upper torso more power)

Lebron is a Better Defender on SFs NOT PFs (*Bird had The Highest DRT and DWS for a SF in the 80s)

Lebron is a Better Ballhandler and Offense Creator (the best ever as an open court player IMO)

Lebron is a Better Full Court Player (athletic abilities)[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Bird Was Was Better Pure Shooter (far range, close range, mid range etc)

Bird Was a Better Rebounder (Yes he average 15.3 RPG vs Moses in the 1981 Finals)

Bird was a Better Pure Passer (just watch the videos especially at half court)

Bird was Better Low Post Defender on PFs (See*)

Bird was Better Team Defender (would get many steals since today many teams play zone d)

Bird was Better 3-Point Shooter

Bird was A Better Post Player and Half Court Player (though Lebron has improoved)

Bird had The Better B-Ball IQ and Fundamentals (more Crafty and Skilled at Everything but Ballhandling)[/COLOR]

I think They Are Close...I Think Both of Them are The Best SFs Ever but Different Style of Play. One is a SG/SF/PF Hybrid The Other is a Point-Forward

In the Next 5-7 Years Lebron has Chance to Be the Best SF Ever

LOL, you broke defender up three times in favor of Bird. Please go on youtube and show me where Bird locked down anybody. He wasn't this great defender at all. He might have been adequate at best. PF's back then rarely scored anyway.

When Kurt Rambis came out the game and AC Green came in Bird whole game was affected by AC Green because he couldn't keep up with him. When real powerforwards played Mchale guarded Ralph Sampson, Otis Thorpe, Buck Williams, Dr J. So while Bird was avoiding the better foward 95% of the time, Lebron is guarding the best scorer on the other team 85% of the time. Dennis Johnson used to guard Barkley in a lot of those Philly matchups, which is just plain crazy. Lebron would have been guarding the hotter between Dr J and Barkley - Bird didn't guard either of the Forwards. Its not even a conversation, to be honest.

[LeBird]

In his first year Bird wasn't ready for the playoffs and I did stress real big super year. It took awhile before Bird was better than Maxwell in the playoffs. Its very different if the majority of the people here knew who Maxwell was. If Lebron had that type of year after he was 20 people would wonder what was wrong with him.

Then you're really narrowing the definition of what a really big year is, and you did it by arbitrary stat-lines. Bird's first year was a huge year. The number of players who have had that affect on a team in the NBA can be counted on one hand.

On to your second point, people actually don't call Lebron a scorer cause its not what he sets out to do when he's on the court. On this board the top three scorers are Durant, Kobe and Wade over the last three years. If Lebron is hot he doesn't try to score the whole game and will more than likely pass more. I guess that's the distinction. Greg Anthony just said last week that Lebron isn't considered a scorer because that's not what he does best.

That's ironic because that describes Bird. Even though he is probably the greatest shooter of all time, he didn't set out to score the most or lead the league in ppgs. He was a past-first player and set out for the high percentage play as much as possible. In the same vein, Bird could be the best rebounder, passer or scorer on the team whenever the occasion arose - and 2/3 to a far higher level than Lebron. In this respect they're the same; that you can't just say "x is a scorer".

[pauk]

This level until he is 31? As in get MVP, FMVP, Championship until he is 31... which is 4 years from now? Which means 4 more MVPs, 4 more FMVPs, 4 more Championships?

Which means his career will look something like:

7 x MVP
5 x FMVP
5 x Championships
12 x NBA All-Star
10 x 1st All-NBA
8 x 1st All-Defensive
ROTY
and so on...

That is enough not only to pass freakin Bird, but Michael Jordan and become GOAT....

[pauk]

Lets Anaylze Them

[COLOR="Blue"]Lebron is a Better Pure Scorer (more versatile scorer)

Lebron is a Better Slasher and Driver (better ballhandler, faster, quicker and more potent)

Lebron is a Better Dunker and Finisher at The Rim (stronger upper torso more power)

Lebron is a Better Defender on PGs, SGs, SFs, PFs, Cs, he is alongside Pippen the most versatile defender in NBA history....

Lebron is a Better versatile player, he could play and even dominate up to 4-5 positions playing them traditionally

Lebron is a Better Ballhandler and Offense Creator (the best ever as an open court player IMO)

Lebron is a Better Full Court Player (athletic abilities)

Lebron is a Better Pure Passer (just watch the stats, records, milestones, games, videos.. although Bird is right behind Lebron in that area amongst SFs or any non-PGs)

Lebron is a Better Interior/Perimeter/Help/Team Defender[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Bird Was a Better Pure Shooter no question (far range, close range, mid range, FT etc, maybe the best shooter ever afterall)

Bird Was a Better Rebounder (or at least he attacked the boards more where as Lebron would instead more like leak out for a breakaway on the defensive boards and run first back to play defense/chasedown on offensive boards.)

Bird was a Better Post Player (Lebron has improved and might improve even more than Bird in that area very soon though).
[/COLOR]

Fixed...


Mind you, Bird was my favorite player of all time alongside Reggie, i have around 150-200 games with him.... but i am not simpleminded, i have watched every single game of Lebron and i can tell you with full comfort that Lebron is somewhat of a better overall individual player no matter how you twist and turn it... Bird will tell you the same (and he does, all the time, hell he even said Lebron will end up GOAT)...

All-time rankings are more about accolades rather than Individual talent... if that wasnt the case then Wilt Chamberlain or Oscar Robertson would have been GOATs

[LeBird]

Lebron is a better passer than Bird? You're taking the piss now - especially from a so-called Bird fan. And only 'somewhat' better rebounder?

[pauk]

Lebron is a better passer than Bird? You're taking the piss now - especially from a so-called Bird fan.

He is man.....

What criteria do you want to go after? Assist totals, Assist averages, pure passing arsenal/ability, court vision, records, milestones..... Try me... i got all those facts and NONE favor Larry Bird...

[LeBird]

He is man.....

What criteria do you want to go after? Assist totals, Assist averages, pure passing arsenal/ability, court vision, records, milestones..... Try me... i got all those facts and NONE favor Larry Bird...

. The only reason Lebron comes close to Bird in terms of passing aggregates/averages is because he is much more ball dominant and plays half the game as a makeshift PG. Bird as a forward, a far less ball dominant player, averages almost the same. Bird had a far wider range of passing and his vision is really only matched by Magic. This is one area where they're on different tiers and the stats you cite only serve to hide the contextual differences.

[arifgokcen]

I thought bird himself said lebron is better than him.Why even argue this much. Even though their offensive production is very similar lebron ability to break down the entire defenses and draw fouls and his defensive prowessand versatiliy and physical and athletic abilities puts him over bird.Though he has to win more accolades to become the GOAT SF of all time.

[Hands of Iron]

. The only reason Lebron comes close to Bird in terms of passing aggregates/averages is because he is much more ball dominant and plays half the game as a makeshift PG. Bird as a forward, a far less ball dominant player, averages almost the same. Bird had a far wider range of passing and his vision is really only matched by Magic. This is one area where they're on different tiers and the stats you cite only serve to hide the contextual differences.

Yeah, but he's got 150-200 Bird games.