All-around players are overrated

[Quintilianus]

MJ was an allround player aswell. As good as any allround player ever...

So is Kobe... he is just extra scoring minded...

That's the point, that extra something that makes those guys dominant in one aspect of the game.
You can't really say that LeBron is a dominant scorer or a dominant passer, but he's elite in both, and a decent rebounder nonetheless. Same stuff with Bird and Magic.

[pauk]

That's the point, that extra something that makes those guys dominant in one aspect of the game.
You can't really say that LeBron is a dominant scorer or a dominant passer, but he's elite in both, and a decent rebounder nonetheless. Same stuff with Bird and Magic.

Yes he is........

[La Frescobaldi]

By "elvin".... do you mean the Big E - Elvin Hayes?

[Quintilianus]

Yes he is........

Not really, he doesn't try to overtake the game with one of those things, he tries to mix them in clutch situations, and that's, imho, a reason for his shortcomings that he had.
What I mean by elite is top 5 if I need to clarify.

[Quintilianus]

By "elvin".... do you mean the Big E - Elvin Hayes?

Yes.

[pauk]

Not really, he doesn't try to overtake the game with any of those things, he tries to mix them in clutch situations, and that's, imho, a reason for his shortcomings that he had.
What I mean by elite is top 5 if I need to clarify.

He doesnt "try to mix them".... he simply plays the game the right way, offensively he dominates teams with his scoring/passing and/or both, it completely depends on how the defense plays him and his teammates..... he has the complete tools offensively which allows him to punish the defense for every mistake....

If Lebron didnt have that vision/passing then he would be forced to score/shoot much more often.... hence "dominate one way".... Lebron despite mixing passing with scoring averages 27.6 ppg (3rd highest in NBA history) at very high percentage and has broken every scoring total milestone from 1000 points to 21000 points.... i wouldnt say he is not a dominant scorer? If he didnt have his passing he would logically average MUCH more points... same goes with passing if he wasnt such a scorer...

A player doing more of one thing is not because of choice, but because of lack of something else....

You are correct that Lebron doesnt dominate ONE way....... he dominates ANY ways....

...and what shortcomings are we talking about here? In the clutch? Show me those facts please? Because ALL the factual "shortcomings" ive seen in that department show only the opposite.... want to see?

[Young X]

SMH at MJ not being listed as an all-around player

That's the point, that extra something that makes those guys dominant in one aspect of the game.
You can't really say that LeBron is a dominant scorer or a dominant passer, but he's elite in both, and a decent rebounder nonetheless. Same stuff with Bird and Magic.

Yes he is. He has 3 seasons averaging 30 points, he's 3rd all-time in PPG, hell he almost averaged 40 in a playoff series, he's one of the greatest scorers in NBA history.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

OP hasn't watched and/or played basketball for very long. That much is apparent.

[Mr. Jabbar]

devin stern is underrated

[DatAsh]

Hello everybody, I haven't seen this thought put out here, at least not in the recent history.
I want to talk about guys that can do it all. The all-around players that are really loved by fans, obviously because they always make the extra pass and throw the responsibility for a loss of of their shoulders.
History has shown that all-around players haven't had that much team success compared to scorers and post-dominant players. And that's kinda surprising, isn't it?
Keep in mind that i'm not taking defense, clutchness, and factors like that into deciding what is an all-around player, i'm strictly talking 'bout those guys, that are known for their pts-reb-ast stats and one another major thing is that they're willing to pass the ball late.
I'll just name an equal amount of one-thing-dominant players and all-around players and add their amount of rings together to have a perspective on this opinion, that the new generation of fans aren't to supposed to agree with.
So let's take MJ+Kobe+Wilt+Dream+Moses+admiral+elvin+Reed. That's 6+5+2+2+1+2+1+2=21 rings.
Magic+Bird+LBJ+Oscar+KG+JKidd+Dr.J+Elgin accounts for 5+3+1+1+1+1+1+0=13 rings
Keep in mind that I left out duncan who probably coud've been in the one thing dominant group, and bill russell who excelled at defense and rebounding but was just a mediocre scorer. IF we add both of those guys the margin between the two groups is like three times bigger.
Again, this thread is not to diminish the likes of lbj, oscar or guys like that, this is just for discussing and deciding between all-arounds and one-thing-dominants(this is a terrible term, but english is not my first language, i apologize).
So what do you think?

Are you longtime lurker or Ne 1?

[Odinn]

The closest top 12 players to being a one-dimensional player are Kobe Bryant and Moses Malone.

[Anaximandro1]

Keep in mind that I left out duncan who probably coud've been in the one thing dominant group

Duncan is very tricky for non-Spurs fans for several reasons:

-Spurs averaged 95 ppg and won 58 games/season during Duncan's prime.

-Duncan plays the game the right way.He only cares about winning.Stats are means to an end.You can't expect regular seasons of 28-30ppg in that context :it would be a disservice to the team

Regular season (1998 - 2007)

Duncan played 746 games (Spurs won 531 games - 71.2%)

Duncan 21.8 pt,11.9 rb,3.2 as,2.5 blk FG 50.9% (Spurs averaged 95.3 ppg)

-Spurs won more than 75% of their games in the first round during Duncan's prime.As you can see, his stats don't really stand out.

First Round (1998 - 2007)

Duncan played 42 games (Spurs won 32 games - 76.2%)

Duncan 20.9 pt,11.4 rb,3.9 as,2.9 blk FG 51.5% (Spurs averaged 94.9 ppg)

-Things get interesting once the Spurs made it to the WSCF (Lakers,Mavs,,Suns).The Spurs won 54% of their games (27-23) during Duncan's prime.The Western Conference powerhouses had more firepower than the Spurs, so Duncan went into takeover mode to give his team a chance.

Western Conference Semifinals (1998 - 2007)

Duncan played 50 games (Spurs won 27 games - 54.0%)

Duncan 26.6 pt,12.6 rb,3.1 as,2.4 blk FG 50.6% (Spurs averaged 94.8 ppg)



1998 21.0 pt,8.4 rb,1.2 as,1.6 blk FG 49.4% (Spurs 84.8 ppg)

1999 29.0 pt,10.8 rb,3.3 as,2.0 blk FG 51.3% (Spurs 96.8 ppg)

2001 27.0 pt,17.4 rb,3.6 as,2.0 blk FG 51.0% (Spurs 102.2 ppg)

2002 29.0 pt,17.2 rb,4.6 as,3.2 blk FG 42.5% (Spurs 85.8 ppg)

2003 28.0 pt,11.8 rb,4.8 as,1.3 blk FG 52.9% (Spurs 99.5 ppg)

2004 20.7 pt,12.2 rb,3.3 as,1.7 blk FG 47.3% (Spurs 83.8 ppg)

2005 25.2 pt,10.3 rb,2.5 as,2.5 blk FG 45.9% (Spurs 98.7 ppg)

2006 32.3 pt,11.7 rb,3.7 as,2.6 blk FG 55.6% (Spurs 99.9 ppg)

2007 26.8 pt,13.8 rb,1.2 as,4.2 blk FG 57.3% (Spurs 100.0 ppg)

Playoffs (1998 - 2007)-Excluding First Round

Duncan played 96 games (Spurs won 59 games - 61.5%)

Duncan 25.0 pt,13.0 rb,2.4 as,2.7 blk FG 50.5% (Spurs 93.2 ppg)


1998 21.0 pt,8.4 rb,1.2 as,1.6 blk FG 49.4% (Spurs 84.8 ppg)

1999 24.6 pt,11.7 rb,2.7 as,2.5 blk FG 52.5% (Spurs 88.9 ppg)

2001 25.2 pt,15.1 rb,3.9 as,3.0 blk FG 49.7% (Spurs 92.9 ppg)

2002 29.0 pt,17.2 rb,4.6 as,3.2 blk FG 42.5% (Spurs 85.8 ppg)

2003 26.7 pt,15.2 rb,5.3 as,3.2 blk FG 53.1% (Spurs 96.2 ppg)

2004 20.7 pt,12.2 rb,3.3 as,1.7 blk FG 47.3% (Spurs 83.8 ppg)

2005 24.0 pt,12.8 rb,2.6 as,2.2 blk FG 46.2% (Spurs 95.9 ppg)

2006 32.3 pt,11.7 rb,3.7 as,2.6 blk FG 55.6% (Spurs 99.9 ppg)

2007 22.9 pt,11.7 rb,2.5 as,3.2 blk FG 53.9% (Spurs 96.1 ppg)

[La Frescobaldi]

Hello everybody, I haven't seen this thought put out here, at least not in the recent history.
I want to talk about guys that can do it all. The all-around players that are really loved by fans, obviously because they always make the extra pass and throw the responsibility for a loss of of their shoulders.
History has shown that all-around players haven't had that much team success compared to scorers and post-dominant players. And that's kinda surprising, isn't it?
Keep in mind that i'm not taking defense, clutchness, and factors like that into deciding what is an all-around player, i'm strictly talking 'bout those guys, that are known for their pts-reb-ast stats and one another major thing is that they're willing to pass the ball late.
I'll just name an equal amount of one-thing-dominant players and all-around players and add their amount of rings together to have a perspective on this opinion, that the new generation of fans aren't to supposed to agree with.
So let's take [COLOR="Red"]MJ+Kobe+Wilt+Dream+Moses[/COLOR]+admiral+elvin+Reed. That's 6+5+2+2+1+2+1+2=21 rings.
Magic+Bird+LBJ+Oscar+KG+JKidd+Dr.J+Elgin accounts for 5+3+1+1+1+1+1+0=13 rings
Keep in mind that I left out duncan who probably coud've been in the one thing dominant group, and bill russell who excelled at defense and rebounding but was just a mediocre scorer. IF we add both of those guys the margin between the two groups is like three times bigger.
Again, this thread is not to diminish the likes of lbj, oscar or guys like that, this is just for discussing and deciding between all-arounds and one-thing-dominants(this is a terrible term, but english is not my first language, i apologize).
So what do you think?

Those guys you listed to make your argument are the exact guys you don't want to use to make your argument.
Jordan & Chamberlain are classic examples of players who were so far above the rest of the world that their own teammates couldn't even see them. Stratospheric. Apollo rockets in flight

It wasn't until they abandoned their overwhelming game style and changed to something that normal all-world NBA level players could understand.... that they had their greatest success.

And further, of all the players I have seen in my lifetime, the all round greatness of Michael Jordan & of Wilt Chamberlain is so far above anyone else it's not even funny... only Kareem, who you did not list here, is at their level imo.

I like the idea of your thread but possibly you might consider other guys for that first group - guys like Adrian Dantley or Carmelo Anthony or George Gervin - yeah, Elvin Hayes. Elite level scorers, absolute black holes.

Because Kobe & Wilt & Mike were so all-round great within their eras that nobody could come close to them - in multiple facets of the game.

[Round Mound]

Yup Larr Bird Is Overrated

[SilkkTheShocker]

Jeff, im not telling you how to run your site, but these new posters have been absolutely terrible. It feels like ISH is being watered down by expansion team posters. I haven't seen the OP make a post yet that wasn't a steaming pile of shit.