When a 6-4 defends a 7 footer (Dellavedova vs. Dirk)

[PistonsFan#21]

I don't think that's legal. Catching your own shot if it doesn't hit backboard/rim is a travel, no?

It wasnt a shot though he just threw the ball in the air. You are allowed to throw the ball in the air and get it back if you maintain a pivot foot and dont move or dribble after. When he jumped up he released the ball before his pivot foot came back to the ground so i dont think theres anything illegal with that move.

Could be wrong though

[AboutBuckets]

Any other short dudes, WTF do you do when your defender is that much taller than you? Just foul em?

5'10 here, consistently find myself guarding guys 6'2 and above in Intramural Leagues at college. If they are out on the perimeter, I make sure to use any quickness advantage I have to stay in front of them at all times & try to make them pick up their dribble at a spot where a shot they take would be of low quality --> try and get them to get rid of the ball. After that, play hard prevent defense when they move through vulnerable areas of the court. If they try to post up, do my work early and don't let them establish good position. If they still get me down low, I'll front them to make an entry pass more difficult and your bigs (who should be on the same page) will help you out on the high lob entry.

[G-train]

Delly is listed 6'4? 6'2 at a maximum.

[Kblaze8855]

Until you come down with it I wouldnt assume its a travel. Ive seen it done in game.

Why would it be any different from a self lob alley? Not off the bakcboard...Mark Jackson style.

Are people aware of Mark doing that in his youth? Self lob then a weak dunk?

I never saw it called a travel.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Until you come down with it I wouldnt assume its a travel. Ive seen it done in game.

Why would it be any different from a self lob alley? Not off the bakcboard...Mark Jackson style.

Are people aware of Mark doing that in his youth? Self lob then a weak dunk?

I never saw it called a travel.

Yea, not a travel if you catch the ball while in the air and release it before you touch the ground...

Self alley oop (not off the backboard) would be something of "that nature"... Yes, just like what Mark did sometimes.
Steve Francis doing something like that too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJIoDdxByoY

Zeke did this here and there, from time to time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1euE0pj_JE&t=0m35s
Seen Pippen do something similar too

[PistonsFan#21]

Until you come down with it I wouldnt assume its a travel. Ive seen it done in game.

Why would it be any different from a self lob alley? Not off the bakcboard...Mark Jackson style.

Are people aware of Mark doing that in his youth? Self lob then a weak dunk?

I never saw it called a travel.

Yea, not a travel if you catch the ball while in the air and release it before you touch the ground...

Self alley oop (not off the backboard) would be something of "that nature"... Yes, just like what Mark did sometimes.
Steve Francis doing something like that too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJIoDdxByoY

Zeke did this here and there, from time to time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1euE0pj_JE&t=0m35s
Seen Pippen do something similar too

Yea thats what i thought too. I didnt think there's anything wrong with that move.

Kinda similar to this too:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Yea thats what i thought too. I didnt think there's anything wrong with that move.

Kinda similar to this too:

Yup, like that too... That's the Isiah move (at least in my mind).

[Rake2204]

Yea thats what i thought too. I didnt think there's anything wrong with that move.

Kinda similar to this too:

I wish to continue researching this aspect of the game.

I recall the likes of Mark Jackson and Steve Francis completing self lobs but theoretically, those plays would be live dribbles turned directly into shots (unless a player picked up that dribble with two hands or carried it somehow before the last bounce - as Francis did in his case). Had Francis not let the ball sit in his hand while he wandered downcourt, instead completing a standard live dribble initiation, it would have been a legally sound play. Instead, it was an awful travel overlooked by officials because they'd already conceded the sure bucket.

I've always been uncertain about the self-pass thing that AI's doing above. I've seen Kenny Smith do that as well. I actually used to do it from time to time in pickup games but I never trusted its legality in a real game. I haven't been able to tell if it's a legal play or the NBA just saying, "Meh, couldn't really tell what happened there, we'll let that go" on the rare times it occurs.

Third, I've always viewed passes off the backboard being different than flat out "self-passes". Typically, I've seen many rules state that once a pass has been initiated, the passer cannot be the next thing to touch the ball. This would mean that throwing the ball off the backboard, or off the back of an opponent, would be legal, but gathering the ball and throwing it in the air to oneself, would not.

Like I said, I'm about to dig in and see what I can come across in terms of a concrete explanation. I thought that Marbury move was a no-brainer but now you guys have me thinking a little. First link I've come across so far isn't very reputable but it says:

According to the Official NBA Rulebook, you will charged with traveling and lose possession if you are the first person that touches a ball after you have made a pass. The NCAA and International Basketball Federation both have similar rules. All three groups agree that the ball must legally contact another in-bounds player for a throw-in to be completed. Although "legal contact" refers primarily to whether the receiving player is fully in bounds, this term can also apply to situations of deliberately bouncing the ball off another player.

NBA, NCAA and FIBA rules all state that you can touch a ball after making a pass if it first comes into contact with another player. As such, it is technically legal to complete a self-pass that involves deliberately bouncing the ball off an opposing player's body. This is also true for throw-ins, as long as you have both of your feet in bounds before recovering the ball. However, if the referee judges that you have deliberately bounced the ball off an opponent in a way that might cause injury, you can be charged with a technical or personal foul.

In addition to contact with other players, contact with the rim or backboard can be used as a means of recovering your own pass. This form of self-passing is often used at the end of a fast break, typically as part of an acrobatic layup or slam-dunk attempt. However, as FIBA rules clearly state, deliberately bouncing the ball off the rim or backboard can be considered a form of dribbling. As such, you may be charged with traveling if the referee does not view your use of the backboard or rim as an actual shot attempt.

http://healthyliving.azcentral.com/b...pass-4646.html

[G-train]

Those moves were 100% travel, but are now allowed in the NBA for entertainment purposes. Including throwing pass off the backboard. Not even sure if they are in the rules yet, but are just unspoken 'rules'.

I first started noticing it in the early Jordan era. The NBA started allowing 2.5, 3, 4 steps, carrying, etc.... instead of the strict fundamental play.

Obviously to increase entertainment/cash.

[Rake2204]

Those moves were 100% travel, but are now allowed in the NBA for entertainment purposes. Including throwing pass off the backboard. Not even sure if they are in the rules yet, but are just unspoken 'rules'.

I first started noticing it in the early Jordan era. The NBA started allowing 2.5, 3, 4 steps, carrying, etc.... instead of the strict fundamental play.

Obviously to increase entertainment/cash.

I'm with you. I felt the same way - that traveling in the NBA was kind of like being in the Matrix. That is, there's rules, but sometimes they can be bent.

That said, I actually do believe the off-the-backboard self-pass is legal, citing the "player can't be first thing to touch passed ball" rule.

EDIT: Here we are:

A player may not be the first to touch his own pass unless the ball touches his backboard, basket ring or another player.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...ng-to-yourself

I'd guess that rule was added or addressed once those plays began sprouting up in the early 2000's (via Tracy McGrady, most notably). I would not be surprised if a self-lob off the backboard is still illegal at other levels (I think I read it's still not legal in FIBA).

[oarabbus]

5'10 here, consistently find myself guarding guys 6'2 and above in Intramural Leagues at college. If they are out on the perimeter, I make sure to use any quickness advantage I have to stay in front of them at all times & try to make them pick up their dribble at a spot where a shot they take would be of low quality --> try and get them to get rid of the ball. After that, play hard prevent defense when they move through vulnerable areas of the court. If they try to post up, do my work early and don't let them establish good position. If they still get me down low, I'll front them to make an entry pass more difficult and your bigs (who should be on the same page) will help you out on the high lob entry.

Thanks man. How about a guy who's a good enough shooter to not have to drive on you? I'm a bit shorter than you, but think of if you had to guard a guy exactly 6' with a nice reliable jumpshot. I try to just deny but once they get the ball, even if I "contest" they can still shoot over. It's frustrating when you're RIGHT THERE and they still make the shot

[PistonsFan#21]

I wish to continue researching this aspect of the game.

I recall the likes of Mark Jackson and Steve Francis completing self lobs but theoretically, those plays would be live dribbles turned directly into shots (unless a player picked up that dribble with two hands or carried it somehow before the last bounce - as Francis did in his case). Had Francis not let the ball sit in his hand while he wandered downcourt, instead completing a standard live dribble initiation, it would have been a legally sound play. Instead, it was an awful travel overlooked by officials because they'd already conceded the sure bucket.

I've always been uncertain about the self-pass thing that AI's doing above. I've seen Kenny Smith do that as well. I actually used to do it from time to time in pickup games but I never trusted its legality in a real game. I haven't been able to tell if it's a legal play or the NBA just saying, "Meh, couldn't really tell what happened there, we'll let that go" on the rare times it occurs.

Third, I've always viewed passes off the backboard being different than flat out "self-passes". Typically, I've seen many rules state that once a pass has been initiated, the passer cannot be the next thing to touch the ball. This would mean that throwing the ball off the backboard, or off the back of an opponent, would be legal, but gathering the ball and throwing it in the air to oneself, would not.

Like I said, I'm about to dig in and see what I can come across in terms of a concrete explanation. I thought that Marbury move was a no-brainer but now you guys have me thinking a little. First link I've come across so far isn't very reputable but it says:

http://healthyliving.azcentral.com/b...pass-4646.html

I understand what you're saying but by self pass i think they mean stopping your dribble, throwing the ball forward and going after it to pick it up. If the dribble isnt stopped it would just be the same as pushing the ball forward like you sometimes see Lebron, Westbrook, Rose, etc do on a fastbreak.

In the Iverson gif he was taking his 2 steps motion for the layup so while he takes his 2 steps he can do whatever he wants with the ball (wether its juggling, behind the back, etc). It would only be called a travel if he used the self lob as a way to keep his dribble alive (or even if he simply came down with the ball after taking his 2 steps)

In the marbury gif its the same principle except that his dribble is already stopped so he cant move anywhere. Do you agree that you can do pretty much anything you want with the ball as long as your pivot foot doesnt move? When he jumps up in the air he has to release the ball before coming down with it. If he threw the ball forward and ran after it then yeah it would be a self pass but in this case he lifted his pivot foot so he had to release the ball before coming down with it just like you would do with a regular jumpshot.

If self pass simply implied a player being the 1st one touching a basketball twice then a play like this would be called a travel:



but its actually a pefectly legal move.

And Rondo even has a 4 minute video of this type of plays: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-9w...%3Dj-9w_a464No)

[oarabbus]

How bout when a guy takes 2 steps but then pivots instead of releasing the ball? Never was sure if that was legal. Kind of hard to explain I'll try to find a video of it but not having any luck

[Rake2204]

Do you agree that you can do pretty much anything you want with the ball as long as your pivot foot doesnt move?

With respect, I most certainly do not agree. If a player has possession of the ball and has not used his dribble, his options are essentially:

1) Holding position by standing in secure possession of the ball in some form (triple threat)
2) Passing
3) Initiating a live dribble
4) Attempting a shot

The Rajon Rondo clips, as goofy as those plays are - they're dribble initiations. If, in that gif, he'd actually flung the ball a little higher in the air, to where he had time to turn and catch without the ball hitting the floor, that would have been a travel, via self pass. He knows that so, as mentioned, he performs that play in such a manner (by bouncing the ball) that it is interpreted as the start of live dribble.

Meanwhile, Marbury's play, in my opinion, would be deemed a self-pass which, as established above, cannot be touched first by the passer. Could we agree his intent was to pass the ball to himself? Whether his pivot foot is established or not, to me, is irrelevant, for a pass to oneself cannot legally occur whether a pivot foot is established or not. Essentially, a self pass is a self pass.

I feel very, very confident that if a player were standing at half court, unguarded, perhaps running the clock out, and he decided to throw the ball up in the air to himself then catch it - that he'd be whistled for a travel. There is a reason why Stephon Marbury's All-Star excursion against Vlade Divac is nearly one-of-a-kind.

[inclinerator]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBoQCYY32E0

violation

scottie pippen had one too