LeBron James is...

[Showtime]

The greatest stat padder in NBA history.

Yeah, since even when Kobe stat pads he can't get those numbers.

[Mdog1]

I think Jordan is one of the most all-around players when you consider defense. But I would rank Bird and maybe Magic above him in terms of being the best all-around offensive player. There probably are others, but those are the guys I've seen with my own eyes.

But MJ's still up there because, as I've said, it's possible to have as much of an impact without getting a triple double.

For example, look at this...

Larry Bird (1986 Finals)
24pts, 9.7 rebs, 9.5 asts, 2.67 stls, 0.33 blks on 48% fg

Michael Jordan (1991 Finals)
31.2 pts, 6.6 rebs, 11.4 asts, 2.8 stls, 1.4 blks on 61% fg

Larry averaged a "triple double" (with rounding) but MJ averaged more points, more assists, more steals, more blocks and shot a higher percentage. So, it can be argued that MJ had just as much impact (if not more) than Larry, even though Larry had averaged a triple double.

And we never considered the defensive impact.

I agree. The only thing that I am pissed off about in my past is not seeing Jordan play. I would have travelled to florida to see him play, but whatever. Any way Jordan was phenominal and there is no disputing he is GOAT. I agree with your analysis of the numbers. Jordan even not including his offensive numbers was possibly more valuable to his team because of the defense that Bird didn't play.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Another thing I find interesting is his being passed Jordan in TD's for a career.

He has the ball in his hands a lot more than Jordan did post-1989 and pre-'89 (even now, when Lebron is less ball dominant than in past years). Plus, he doesn't have any great rebounders on his team and he is still the primary facilitator/playmaker. Jordan had 7 straight triple doubles in 1989, and 10 TD's in 11 consecutive games (including seven 30+ point TD's and two 40 point TD's in that span). Let him play a similar ball dominant role the entire 1989 season (as opposed to just the final 25 games) and he gets a ton more. Let him play a similar role from '90-'93 and he gets a ton more.

Jordan had a 6-7 apg player on his team who handled the ball a ton, and he had a couple of other guys at 4 apg as well. Despite this, he still got 5.5-6.3+ assists post-1989. No one besides Lebron is above 4 apg on the Cavs. Jordan had an 11 reb PF and an 8 reb SF; Bron has a 7 reb PF and 8 reb C; and there's also positional factors involved. Cleveland is more a committee rebounding team than Chicago was, since the Bulls had designated rebounders for the most part.

This is not to say that Lebron is not a fantastic all-around player -- he is. He might even be a better all-around player than Jordan defense excluded. But to suggest that Jordan's TD career total was the best that he could have done under any circumstance (such as the circumstances Lebron's found himself in his entire career) is wrong. Jordan could and would have done a lot more if things were different.

He's a very unique talent, though. Very unique. A dominant scorer with that level of all-around game has come along only twice in NBA history imo (Oscar and Jordan). You could probably throw Bird in there as well since he was basically a dominant scorer when he wanted to be.

[Da_Realist]

I agree. The only thing that I am pissed off about in my past is not seeing Jordan play. I would have travelled to florida to see him play, but whatever. Any way Jordan was phenominal and there is no disputing he is GOAT. I agree with your analysis of the numbers. Jordan even not including his offensive numbers was possibly more valuable to his team because of the defense that Bird didn't play.

Bird's help defense is underrated, in my opinion. But don't feel too bad. I followed MJ during most of his career and I only saw him live twice (once in the game that set the sporting event attendance record at the Georgie Dome in Atlanta in 98 while I was in college there and once more in his last game here in Washington DC as a Wizard).

[211269]

Funny how Lebron lovers can only point to meaningless REGULAR season stats because the guy usually chokes in big playoff games and has never won a ring

If you wanna play regular season crap. Lets see Lebron outscore an entire GOOD team 63-61 after 3 quarters and score 81 in a game...

[Da_Realist]

Funny how Lebron lovers can only point to meaningless REGULAR season stats because the guy usually chokes in big playoff games and has never won a ring

If you wanna play regular season crap. Lets see Lebron outscore an entire team 63-61 after 3 quarters and score 81 in a game...

That will change sooner than you think.

[211269]

That will change sooner than you think.

Not with his me first, no one can stop me attitude. Kobe already tried that and it doesnt work.

[Brunch@Five]

Bird and Magic certainly are up there with MJ as most dominating offensive forces of all time, and best all-round players ever. Magic averaged 23/8/13 one season, which isn't any worse than MJs 33/8/8 season. Bird averaged 29/11/7 once, which is certainly better than anything Bron has put up thus far. And Bird did that on a stacked team with 3 other guys scoring 15+ points. Bron last year didn't even have one teammate score 15+, that's how much he dominated their offense.

also, to quote myself:

just looked it up, basketball-reference says it's MJ since the 1987 season
so you talking about all-time is a bit preposterous, no? It doesn't count half of Bird's and Magic's careers. That includes seasons those two were averaging 29/11/7 (Bird) and 19/10/10 (Magic), amongst other great all-around numbers.
I'm not even talking about the Big O here...

the OP is way off base with this topic

[1~Gibson~1]

Funny how Lebron lovers can only point to meaningless REGULAR season stats because the guy usually chokes in big playoff games and has never won a ring

If you wanna play regular season crap. Lets see Lebron outscore an entire GOOD team 63-61 after 3 quarters and score 81 in a game...

considering that he's about to be the #1 at TD's in NBA history, it wouldnt be meaningless. He's about to make history. And what the hell does playoff games have to do with the most TD's in NBA history?

[gts]

Exactly one player in NBA history, Oscar Robertson , has achieved the feat of averaging a triple-double over an entire season. During the 1961 - 1962 season, Robertson averaged 30.8 points, 12.5 rebounds, and 11.4 assists per game. Robertson's feat is highly unlikely to be duplicated in today's NBA. Offensive play is more deliberate than in Robertson's day, due both to offensive strategy and increasingly sophisticated defenses. With fewer possessions in a game, there are fewer opportunities for players to put up high numbers in assists or rebounds. In fact, it has been estimated that there were about one-third more rebounds available in an NBA game of the early 1960s than today. Also, the greater emphasis of one-on-one play in today's NBA as opposed to that of Robertson's day tends to limit opportunities for assists.

Wilt Chamberlain merits mention as being the only player in NBA history to record a double-triple-double (at least 20 of any three statistics). During a game in 1968 , Chamberlain's line was: 22 points, 25 rebounds, and 21 assists.

career triple doubles
181 - Oscar Robertson
138 - Magic Johnson
99 - Jason Kidd
78 - Wilt Chamberlain
59 - Larry Bird
19 - Lebron James

[Mikaiel]

Funny how Lebron lovers can only point to meaningless REGULAR season stats because the guy usually chokes in big playoff games and has never won a ring

So far during his playoff career he had :

- 3 triple doubles
- 3 gamewinners
- One of the best playoff perfomance in NBA history
- 3 gamewinning assists
- 1 Finals appereance

It's not just in the regular season.

[Brunch@Five]

considering that he's about to be the #1 at TD's in NBA history, it wouldnt be meaningless. He's about to make history. And what the hell does playoff games have to do with the most TD's in NBA history?

about to be #1? He still needs 82 to catch Kidd, who's 3rd all-time. He needs 162 TDs to catch #1, Big O. Kidd is at 101 TDs in 1064 games, that's one TD every 10 games. Bron is at 19 games in 427 games, 1 TD every 23 games.

Bron isn't even on pace to be #3 all time, and he's not a sure thing to catch #4 Wilt either.

[1~Gibson~1]

about to be #1? He still needs 82 to catch Kidd, who's 3rd all-time. He needs 162 TDs to catch #1, Big O. Kidd is at 101 TDs in 1064 games, that's one TD every 10 games. Bron is at 19 games in 427 games, 1 TD every 23 games.

Bron isn't even on pace to be #3 all time, and he's not a sure thing to catch #4 Wilt either.

i 4got to put in 30/10/10's . He's almost recorded the most 30/10/10 games in nba history.

[sunsfan1357]

i 4got to put in 30/10/10's . He's almost recorded the most 30/10/10 games in nba history.

How do we know that when there hasn't even been a link to all the 30/10/10 games in history? The OP's link only has from 1986-7.

[WADE MONEY]

Funny how Lebron lovers can only point to meaningless REGULAR season stats because the guy usually chokes in big playoff games and has never won a ring

If you wanna play regular season crap. Lets see Lebron outscore an entire GOOD team 63-61 after 3 quarters and score 81 in a game...

it's like two people control 85% of the accounts on ISH