Kareem or Magic.. Who had the most impact on the lakers?

[bdreason]

Kareem needed Oscar's help. How many did he win without Magic or Oscar?

That doesn't change anything. We are talking about Magic vs. Kareem. And the fact is that Kareem proved he could win a ring without Magic, and Magic didn't win anything without Kareem.




I personally never use arguements like this (because it takes a TEAM to win a ring), but I'm just responding to the retards who try and use the "Kareem didn't win until Magic showed up" arguement.


You're right, Kareem didn't win in LA until Magic showed up... but he did win a ring without Magic... and Magic never won shit without Kareem.

[Sarcastic]

That doesn't change anything. We are talking about Magic vs. Kareem. And the fact is that Kareem proved he could win a ring without Magic, and Magic didn't win anything without Kareem.




I personally never use arguements like this (because it takes a TEAM to win a ring), but I'm just responding to the retards who try and use the "Kareem didn't win until Magic showed up" arguement.


You're right, Kareem didn't win in LA until Magic showed up... but he did win a ring without Magic... and Magic never won shit without Kareem.

So basically you are proving that Kareem was lucky enough to ride the coattails of Magic and Oscar and get some rings because of it.

[LAClipsFan33]

So basically you are proving that Kareem was lucky enough to ride the coattails of Magic and Oscar and get some rings because of it.

Last time I checked it was Kareem who averaged 28ppg and 18rpg in 1971 and won Finals MVP

[LAClipsFan33]

Let's see here...

Game six of the NBA Finals, in Magic's ROOKIE season, on the ROAD, and withOUT Kareem, who was at home sleeping on his couch...and all Magic did was put up a 42 point game, on 14-23 shooting from the field, and a perfect 14-14 from the line...with a GAME-HIGH (and by a huge margin) 15 rebounds, along with seven assists, in LEADING the Lakers to a clinching title win.

Magic was injured in the following season, and was nowhere 100% in the playoffs. Did Kareem step up like Magic? No, he was outplayed by Moses, and the 40-42 Rockets stunned LA.

In the very next season, it was MAGIC who dominated in the post-season, particularly the Finals, and again winning the Finals MVP. Kareem was below average in the post-season that year.

In the 86-87 season, it was MAGIC and then Worthy who led LA to a dominating title, with Kareem contributing as the "third wheel."

In the 87-88 season, it was again MAGIC and Worthy who led LA to a hard-fought seven game series title win over the Pistons. How about Kareem? He played poorly in the entire post-season, and was simply AWFUL in the Finals (he averaged 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and shot .414...and was a non-factor defensively.) So, the Lakers essentially won the title that year DESPITE Kareem. AC Green and Mychael Thompson played even better than Kareem.

In the next season, the Lakers were 11-0 going into the Finals. They were already without Byron Scott going into the Finals, and then Magic went down mid-way in game two, in a tie game...and was lost for the series. The Lakers were SWEPT without him. Kareem was worthless in the entire series.

Kareem retired, and Magic led LA to a 63-19 record, which was the best record in the league, and the Lakers' SECOND BEST record in the decade of the 80's. And then Magic took that "Showtime" team, which was well past their peak, and injury-riddled, to a 58-24 record, and yet another Finals.

Interesting too that WITH Kareem, Magic's Lakers averaged 58 wins per season, and withOUT Kareem, they averaged 61 wins per season, despite the twilight of their Dynasty.

I don't feel any different. No Cap No Ring

[jlauber]

Last time I checked it was Kareem who averaged 28ppg and 18rpg in 1971 and won Finals MVP

Against a 42-40 Bullets team, with 6-7 Wes Unseld outrebounding Kareem in that series.

I will agree that it was Kareem's greatest season overall, but he could not have had an easier road to a ring.

[bdreason]

So basically you are proving that Kareem was lucky enough to ride the coattails of Magic and Oscar and get some rings because of it.

That doesn't make any sense.


The common denominator in both cases is Kareem... so using your logic it was Oscar and Magic riding Kareem's coattails.


Kareem's credentials CRUSH both of those guys resumes, and Kareem is also ranked higher on most (intelligent) peoples top 10 lists than either Magic or Oscar.

[LAClipsFan33]

Against a 42-40 Bullets team, with 6-7 Wes Unseld outrebounding Kareem in that series.

I will agree that it was Kareem's greatest season overall, but he could not have had an easier road to a ring.

So do you have something against Kareem ? I've never seen this type criticism for a guy who played awesome on his way to a ring

[Sarcastic]

That doesn't make any sense.


The common denominator in both cases is Kareem... so using your logic it was Oscar and Magic riding Kareem's coattails.


Kareem's credentials CRUSH both of those guys resumes, and Kareem is also ranked higher on most (intelligent) peoples top 10 lists than either Magic or Oscar.

Only because he dominated the 1970s and won a ton of MVPs in that decade. In the 1980s Magic had the better resume.

[Mr. Jabbar]

To their team sucess: KAJ. Their franchise value: Magic. If that makes any sense.

[Sarcastic]

The OP asked whose impact ON THE LAKERS was greater. The answer to that question is Magic Johnson.

He didn't ask who is the greater all around player, or who is higher on the GOAT list.

[bdreason]

So do you have something against Kareem ? I've never seen this type criticism for a guy who played awesome on his way to a ring

jlauber is a Wilt fanatic who tries to bring down everyone else to promote his hero. I once saw a jlauber top 10 GOAT list that didn't even include Kareem.

[DMAVS41]

jlauber is a Wilt fanatic who tries to bring down everyone else to promote his hero. I once saw a jlauber top 10 GOAT list that didn't even include Kareem.

i haven't seen that.

its natural though being a wilt fan. Kareem didn't like Wilt and didn't ever think of him as a truly great player.

Just yesterday morning Kareem was asked about Wilt on Mike and Mike and Kareem said Wilt wasn't a very good team player.

I sense a lot of jealousy out of some of the other elite big men of all time with Wilt. Its like they are trying to say that they could have put up his numbers but they chose to win. Which is fine, but then come out and say it. Don't dance around it.

I however completely disagree with that notion and Kareem should go to bed at night thanking God for the Lakers getting Magic to play with him. Kareem loves to play the "winning is all that matters" role now, but he didn't play like it for a large part of his career.

He was disinterested in the process before Magic came. Oh how much easier to win it is when you have an all time great teammate and team at your side. Its so easy to talk about sacrifice and winning when thats the case.

Kareem without Magic or another elite player wasn't winning shit in the 80's.

[bdreason]

Kareem loves to play the "winning is all that matters" role now, but he didn't play like it for a large part of his career.

He was disinterested in the process before Magic came. Oh how much easier to win it is when you have an all time great teammate and team at your side. Its so easy to talk about sacrifice and winning when thats the case.

Kareem without Magic or another elite player wasn't winning shit in the 80's.

I think this is BS based on pure specualtion of who you think Kareem was as a player and teammate. Kareem won 3 High School state titles, 3 NCAA titles, and 1 NBA Championship before he even played one game with Erving 'Magic' Johnson... but I'm supposed to believe that Magic taught him how to be a winner?



And Magic without Kareem or another Elite player wasn't winning shit in the 80's either.

[DMAVS41]

I think this is BS based on pure specualtion of who you think Kareem was as a player and teammate. Kareem won 3 High School State Titles, 3 NCAA titles, and 1 NBA Championship before he even played one game with Erving 'Magic' Johnson... but I'm supposed to believe that Magic taught him how to be a winner?



And Magic without Kareem or another Elite player wasn't winning shit in the 80's either.

Taught him how to be a winner? What? Never said that at all.

I said lets not pretend like Kareem was tearing up the NBA and rattling off title after title before Magic showed up.

Kareem is who he is. He's a guy that looked down on a lot of people throughout his life and career. Its obvious. I felt the same way back in 1983 as I do today.

He was a great basketball player and one of the best ever, but he had lost a little passion for the game before Magic arrived....its just the truth.

[KG215]

So do you have something against Kareem ? I've never seen this type criticism for a guy who played awesome on his way to a ring

A lot of people that grew up watching Kareem didn't like him from what I've read. While jlauber has an eternal hard-on for Wilt Chamberlain he does make some very valid arguments for his boy Wilt in any debate as to who the GOAT center is in NBA history.

jlauber, or anyone else for that matter, can you help me understand how KAJ's supporting cast was overly remarkable before Magic's arrival? I'm 24 so, obviously, I wasn't around during that era. I just did some digging around on basketball-reference.

1975-1976
Kareem's first season with the Lakers. They finish 40-42 and miss the playoffs. Kareem averages 27.7 ppg, 16.9 rpg, 5.0 apg, 4.1 bpg on 52.9% shooting, and won the first of his three MVP's as a Los Angeles Laker. The teams second leading scorer was a 32 year old Gail Goodrich on the back-end of his prime and made the last of his 5 All-Star appearances the season before Wilt arrived. In '75-'76 Goodrich averaged a respectable 19.5 points and 5.6 assists per game. But again, going off other seasons, this wasn't prime Goodrich. The team's third leading scorer was Lucius Allen who apparently never made an All-Star game. Allen was 28 years old that season and was also on the backside of his prime. Still, Allen averaged a 14.7 points, 2.8 rebounds, and 4.7 rebounds per game. Then there was 31 year old Cazzie Russell (one All-Star appearance in 1972) who averaged 11.8 points per game. While I don't necessarily know the exact impact those players had on the league during their careers, it is apparent that all three had reached and passed their peaks before Kareem's arrival to LA.

1976-1977
Kareem won his second consecutive league MVP trophy and lead the Lakers to a 53-29 record, the best in the NBA. He averaged 26.2 points, 13.3 rebounds, 3.9 assists, and 3.2 blocks per game while shooting 57.9% from the floor. The Lakers were swept in 4 games by the Trail Blazers in the Western Conference Finals, a team I'm sure you all know quite a bit about. Kareem's main two supporters this season were Cazzie Russell and Lucius Allen, both a year older and a year further away from their respective primes. Gail Goodrich was no longer with the Lakers and was playing in New Orleans for the Jazz. The team's next two leading scorers were a young Kermit Washington (one time All-Star starting the mild climb to his moderate peak that season) and a career bench player in Earl Tatum. I wouldn't necessarily call that a great supporting cast.

1977-1978
Kareem has another superb individual season putting up 25.8 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 4.3 apg, 3.0 bpg and shot 55.0% from the field. The Lakers finished the season with a 45-37 record. Kareem's supporting cast did appear to be better this season. After playing the first 23 games of the season with the Pacers a 21 year old Adrian Dantley joined the Lakers for the final 56 games of the regular season. In those 56 games Dantley scored 19.6 points per game and grabbed 7.2 rebounds. But this was still a very young Adrian Dantley and wasn't the same Dantley that would go on to average 30 ppg in five seasons with the Jazz. He was a great scorer but not yet in his prime. James Edwards was the second leading scorer on the team but was a part of the deal that brought Dantley to the Lakers. The team's next three leading scorers were Earl Tatum, (again, I don't think he was anything real special) a rookie Norm Nixon, and a 33 year old Lou Hudson way past his prime.

The Lakers lost 2-1 in the first round to Seattle, who went on to lose to the Bullets in 7 games in the NBA Finals.


1978-1979
The Lakers finish the season 47-35 and lose in the second round to the eventual champs, Seattle.

For the second straight year it does appear Kareem's supporting cast improved, but I'm not sure I would call it a great supporting cast. 25 year old Jamaal Wilkes was the team's second leading scorer and was just beginning his prime. However, he failed to make the All-Star team that season despite averages of 18.6 points, 7.4 rebounds, 2.8 assists and 1.6 steals per game. Maybe he was a snub??


Dantley was on the team that season but played in just 60 games. I don't know which 60 games they were, either. Did he get hurt and miss the last part of the season and the playoffs? Or did he get hurt early in the year and play the remainder of the season and the playoffs. And if he played in the playoffs how healthy was he??

LA also had Norm Nixon in his second season. He put up 17.1 ppg to go along with 9.0 apg and 2.5 spg. However, he was still 3 seasons away from making his first All-Star game. The fifth leading scorer was a 34 year old Lou Hudson.


Magic arrived the following season and the rest is history. Now, jlauber, I read where you said Kareem played with some of the best players the NBA had to offer prior to Magic's arrival. From what I gathered (and again, it's mostly from things I've read) almost all of the players Kareem played with were once great players who were beyond their prime and aging, or young players who had not yet reached their prime. So, if that is the case, and they truly were some of the best players they had to offer, was the NBA that weak during the 70's? I have read that a majority of the 70's was one of, if not the, weakest era in NBA history.

I know other things go into winning and leading a team to a title. Maybe Kareem was (like I've read) a little disinterested before Magic's arrival. And maybe he wasn't the best leader during his first years with the Lakers. Maybe some of those guys didn't like playing with him. I don't know, but he did put up very gaudy numbers and didn't appear to have a real special supporting cast.