Lebron can't carry a team anymore: Still the best player in the league though

[Bankaii]

Retire Kobe, put Curry on the Lakers...they don't get bounced in the 1st round, because they don't even make it to the playoffs.

I think he barely makes the 8th seed just because the bottom portion of the West is so weak. And he does have the ability to take over 4th quarters.

But when his 3 isn't falling he becomes practically useless. At least KD and Lebron affect the game in other way than shooting, hence their greater impact.

[3ball]

MJ would've carried his 1989 Bulls to the Finals if he played the 2015 Atlanta Hawks in ECF instead of the World Champions Bad Boys

He took the Bad Boys 6 games... would sweep the Hawks

Or he could have carried them if he didn't quit in game 5..... the biggest playoff game of his career up to that point.

Series tied at 2 and MJ only takes 8FGA??...Bulls lose by 9.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...905310DET.html

MJ didn't quit - the Pistons finally had a good defensive game against him after being destroyed for 4 games.

But again, that was against the WORLD CHAMPION BAD BOYS, a far cry from the 2015 Hawks...

Obviously, that wouldn't have happened vs. the Hawks....

MJ takes World Champs 6 games (a top 10 all-time team), so he sweeps the Hawks (not even a top 100 team).

[knicksman]

Bran has never been able to carry a team to championship or else he wouldnt be colluding. Only gullible idiots aka bran stans couldnt see that

[3ball]

[COLOR="Red"]I think I may have told you this before, but your a STAT GEEK[/COLOR]...whats a STAT GEEK you ask? Somebody who can't analyze basketball with their own eyes, but instead runs and finds semi-relevant statistics to prove a point.

I played D1 ball and have played against many NBA players, so you don't know what you're talking about bitty boo

One thing you should know - I base all my post ON THE EYE TEST - when I first started posting on 2+2, all my posts were based on the eye test.. But those guys were clueless about what I was saying because they never played - all they wanted to see was statistical proof..

So that's what I do now - I simply find stats to support the what I see with my eyes - and now fools like you (who probably never played at all and therefore have no eye test) are saying I'm a stat guy, when it's the exact opposite.

When Jordan came back to play for the Wizards, when asked WHY he said "[COLOR="Red"]Because guys are better now then before[/COLOR]".

I don't remember MJ saying that and I'm pretty certain he'd never say that - I think you're lying... But nonetheless, according to your quote - MJ didn't say guys were bigger, stronger or faster - your quote said players were "better", which refers to certain SKILLS, such as the improved ball-handling ability that occurred right around the time MJ retired from the Bulls and before he came back.. If MJ said that, he was referring to offense, and therefore the ballhandling improvement that he saw.

The improved ballhandling had a lot to do with the AND1 revolution/craze at that time - realtalk - any real ballplayer or NBA player will tell you that (i.e Pierce, Vince, Arenas and guys that were coming into the league at that time).

Ball-handling and 3-point shooting is the only area where today's players are better.... And other than point guards, ball-dominance doesn't make players better - it hurts a player and a team for every position except point guard...

It's optimal for teams to have 1 ball-dominator (the point guard) - when a team has MORE than 1 ball-dominator on the floor (teams with Lebron, Harden), teammates are marginalized and don't get to touch the ball (they're turned into play-finishers)..

Today's player's penchant for dominating the ball is one of the reasons previous era teams would beat today's teams - today's teams have multiple players dominating the ball - it's statistical fact that being the ballhandler in a screen roll is the least efficient offensive option for any player.

[COLOR="Red"]if prime Jordan played today, he'd average 24 ppg and like 4-5 rebounds.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"]^^^^^^ That's what he did at 38 years old for half a season before he got hurt - this is from Game #42 in 2002 season vs. Phoenix Suns - here's the time-stamped video - MJ drops 41 on Shawn Marion in that game:[/COLOR]





And this was in 2002, AFTER the introduction of zone, but BEFORE the introduction of the hand-check ban and new defensive 3 seconds - so players could play zone, paint-camp, AND hand-check.

Consequently, DRtg was at abnormally low levels at that time, the lowest since the 70's (when they had a smaller paint)...

Let's see if Lebron can match Jordan's 38-year old stats shown above in 8 years - and he won't have the tough defensive environment that Jordan faced - he'll have today's cupcake environment, where defensive 3 seconds and 3-point shooting clear the lane of defenders, and perimeter defenders aren't allowed to make contact with the ballhandler (the hand-check ban gives ballhandlers league-mandated space on the perimeter to drive and shoot).

[COLOR="red"]Did you see the SHIT that was in the NBA when Jordan first game into the league? A bunch of tall, unalthetic, string beans.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="blue"]The wings from MJ's era match today's era man-for-man:[/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR]2000-2014[COLOR="White"].................[/COLOR]1984-1998

Kobe Bryant.............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James............ Magic Johnson
Kevin Durant............. Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........... Clyde Drexler
Russell Westbrook..... Gary Payton
Tracey McGrady........ Dominique Wilkins
James Harden........... Grant Hill
Kawhi Leonard.......... Scottie Pippen
Paul Pierce............... Adrian Dantley
Carmelo Anthony....... Alex English
Vince Carter............. James Worthy
Allen Iverson............ Penny Hardaway
Jason Kidd................ Jason Kidd


Honorable Mention 1984-1998: Doctor J, Dennis Rodman, Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Eddie Jones, Mitch Richmond, Alvin Robertson, Detlef Schrempf, Dennis Johnson, Latrell Sprewell, Ronaldo Blackman, Fat Lever, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre, Jamaal Mashburn, Glenn Robinson

Honorable Mention 2000-2014: Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Andre Igouodala, Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Draymond Green, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis



[COLOR="navy"]^^^^^ Remember, this is just the wing players - if we add the bigs, previous eras blow today's era to Mars[/COLOR]

[FKAri]

dude stfu. shaq never carried a team full of scrubs to the finals. nor did jordan. I cant lie....im not a lebron fan but that 07 cavs team was shitty....and was the ONLY shitty team to ever make the finals to be carried by one other worldly talent

edit: and the 01 sixers with iverson. THATS IT

That's because he was surrounded by incredible defenders. If The Heatles weren't in the way Rose might've taken the Bulls to the finals too. That one scorer may get all the glory but if not surrounded by great defenders and a great defensive system that superstar would be putting up empty stats on some lottery team.

[3ball]

That's because he was surrounded by incredible defenders. If The Heatles weren't in the way Rose might've taken the Bulls to the finals too. That one scorer may get all the glory but if not surrounded by great defenders and a great defensive system that superstar would be putting up empty stats on some lottery team.

Nearly every single team that wins a championship is a great defensive team

It's a wash on nearly every championship team.. So if that's your argument against a player - that he had a supporting cast that played good team defense - you fail

Otoh, among non-big men, very few #1 scoring options are also their team's best defender...

In MJ's case, he carried the biggest load of any #1 option by far, yet he was also the team's best defender, as it was commonly known AT THE TIME (not today's young fan revisionist history).

As it turns out - the gap between 3-peat and 2nd Round turned out to be OFFENSE - the Bulls were 4th, 7th, and 4th in defense during the first 3-peat, and 6th in 1994... But their offense fell off a cliff - it went from #1 all time (116, 115, 113) to 14th in the league (106)... Yikes

Teams have a finite amount of energy to expend on both ends - shifts in performance and effort on one side normally take away from the other side - but not with MJ - he's the goat two-way player according to Popovich - his presence enables a two-way team.. So basically take Kawhi Leonard, and give him the capability of averaging 10-15 more ppg.. Yikes

[TAZORAC]

I played D1 ball and have played against many NBA players, so you don't know what you're talking about bitty boo

One thing you should know - I base all my post ON THE EYE TEST - when I first started posting on 2+2, all my posts were based on the eye test.. But those guys were clueless about what I was saying because they never played - all they wanted to see was statistical proof..

So that's what I do now - I simply find stats to support the what I see with my eyes - and now fools like you (who probably never played at all and therefore have no eye test) are saying I'm a stat guy, when it's the exact opposite.



I don't remember MJ saying that and I'm pretty certain he'd never say that - I think you're lying... But nonetheless, according to your quote - MJ didn't say guys were bigger, stronger or faster - your quote said players were "better", which refers to certain SKILLS, such as the improved ball-handling ability that occurred right around the time MJ retired from the Bulls and before he came back.. If MJ said that, he was referring to offense, and therefore the ballhandling improvement that he saw.

The improved ballhandling had a lot to do with the AND1 revolution/craze at that time - realtalk - any real ballplayer or NBA player will tell you that (i.e Pierce, Vince, Arenas and guys that were coming into the league at that time).

Ball-handling and 3-point shooting is the only area where today's players are better.... And other than point guards, ball-dominance doesn't make players better - it hurts a player and a team for every position except point guard...

It's optimal for teams to have 1 ball-dominator (the point guard) - when a team has MORE than 1 ball-dominator on the floor (teams with Lebron, Harden), teammates are marginalized and don't get to touch the ball (they're turned into play-finishers)..

Today's player's penchant for dominating the ball is one of the reasons previous era teams would beat today's teams - today's teams have multiple players dominating the ball - it's statistical fact that being the ballhandler in a screen roll is the least efficient offensive option for any player.




[COLOR="Blue"]^^^^^^ That's what he did at 38 years old for half a season before he got hurt - this is from Game #42 in 2002 season vs. Phoenix Suns - here's the time-stamped video - MJ drops 41 on Shawn Marion in that game:[/COLOR]





And this was in 2002, AFTER the introduction of zone, but BEFORE the introduction of the hand-check ban and new defensive 3 seconds - so players could play zone, paint-camp, AND hand-check.

Consequently, DRtg was at abnormally low levels at that time, the lowest since the 70's (when they had a smaller paint)...

Let's see if Lebron can match Jordan's 38-year old stats shown above in 8 years - and he won't have the tough defensive environment that Jordan faced - he'll have today's cupcake environment, where defensive 3 seconds and 3-point shooting clear the lane of defenders, and perimeter defenders aren't allowed to make contact with the ballhandler (the hand-check ban gives ballhandlers league-mandated space on the perimeter to drive and shoot).



[COLOR="blue"]The wings from MJ's era match today's era man-for-man:[/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR]2000-2014[COLOR="White"].................[/COLOR]1984-1998

Kobe Bryant.............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James............ Magic Johnson
Kevin Durant............. Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........... Clyde Drexler
Russell Westbrook..... Gary Payton
Tracey McGrady........ Dominique Wilkins
James Harden........... Grant Hill
Kawhi Leonard.......... Scottie Pippen
Paul Pierce............... Adrian Dantley
Carmelo Anthony....... Alex English
Vince Carter............. James Worthy
Allen Iverson............ Penny Hardaway
Jason Kidd................ Jason Kidd


Honorable Mention 1984-1998: Doctor J, Dennis Rodman, Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Eddie Jones, Mitch Richmond, Alvin Robertson, Detlef Schrempf, Dennis Johnson, Latrell Sprewell, Ronaldo Blackman, Fat Lever, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre, Jamaal Mashburn, Glenn Robinson

Honorable Mention 2000-2014: Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Andre Igouodala, Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Draymond Green, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis



[COLOR="navy"]^^^^^ Remember, this is just the wing players - if we add the bigs, previous eras blow today's era to Mars[/COLOR]

He said it, he said something about the challenge or something.

[Bandito]

3ball taking no prisoners as usual

[TAZORAC]

Also Michael Jordan was a ball hog, do you know how many players could average 24 PPG if they just had the green light to shoot? A nobody like Kemba Walker could do that.

[9erempiree]

Also Michael Jordan was a ball hog, do you know how many players could average 24 PPG if they just had the green light to shoot? A nobody like Kemba Walker could do that.

I'm going to disagree because it is very hard in this league to be able to get shots off. Getting 30 shots is a feat of its own.

I personally do not believe Kemba can get 30 shots off because as he approaches a high number of shots...those shots are going to look very bad.

I stand by the Law of Diminishing return....the more you shoot...the more you miss. A guy like Kemba can shoot 30 times but I guarantee you he barely makes 10 of them.

There is too many factors to just go by averages and say Player X at Y percentages can score Z amount of points.

[TAZORAC]

I'm going to disagree because it is very hard in this league to be able to get shots off. Getting 30 shots is a feat of its own.

I personally do not believe Kemba can get 30 shots off because as he approaches a high number of shots...those shots are going to look very bad.

I stand by the Law of Diminishing return....the more you shoot...the more you miss. A guy like Kemba can shoot 30 times but I guarantee you he barely makes 10 of them.

There is too many factors to just go by averages and say Player X at Y percentages can score Z amount of points.

What about Rudy Gay, Damon Lillard, Danilo Gallinari, Demarcus Cousins?Do you think they could average 24 PPG? You know the problem with Jordan? He was a ball hog, which diminishes his value in my eyes.

[RepMe]

If you put Curry on the Lakers, he may average 27 PPG, but the Lakers are still trash. Carrying a team is more then just hitting 3 pointers, you have to do a variety of things.

He would do more than 27 on the Lakers.