Today's wing player would never make it in Phil's triangle

[3ball]

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The triangle offense is an equal opportunity offense run through the post, where all 5 players are tasked with catching the ball on the post and making plays..





The post-centric nature of the offense and the lack of ball-domination and screen-rolls makes it very restrictive for wing players with a good handle - what wing player in today's game could thrive, let alone dominate at the highest level in that offense?.. After all, they are used to today's high screen-roll play where the floor is totally spread on the strongside AND weakside, while the paint is empty:





It's surprising that MJ didn't run Phil Jackson out of town when he first introduced the triangle.. But MJ didn't run Phil out of town - instead, he adjusted his game, which already included a heavy dose of off-ball play, to include even more off-ball play, particularly from the post..

By making these adjustments, MJ allowed his team to run an optimal, equal-opportunity offense, and therefore the best brand of basketball, which prevented less-talented teams from pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball.. This contrasts from Lebron's game, whose ball-dominance and lack of off-ball ability prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, which gives equal or less-talented opponents the opportunity to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).
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[swagga]

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The triangle offense is an "equal-opportunity" offense run through the post, where all 5 players are tasked with catching the ball on the post and making plays..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxsmT7vZtVo&t=11m32s


The post-centric nature of the offense and the lack of ball-domination and screen-rolls makes it very restrictive for wing players with a good handle - what wing player in today's game could thrive, let alone dominate at the highest level in that offense?.. After all, they are used to today's high screen-roll play where the floor is totally spread on the strongside AND weakside, while the paint is empty:





It's surprising that MJ didn't run Phil Jackson out of town when he first introduced the triangle.. But MJ didn't run Phil out of town - instead, he adjusted his game, which already included a heavy dose of off-ball play, to include even more off-ball play, particularly from the post..

By making these adjustments, MJ allowed his team to run an optimal, equal-opportunity offense, and therefore the best brand of basketball, which prevented less-talented teams from pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball.. This contrasts from Lebron's game, whose ball-dominance and lack of off-ball ability prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, which gives equal or less-talented opponents the opportunity to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).
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so if the triangle is such a great offense why did it win only with super stacked teams ( 90s bulls, shaq lakers, 09-10 lakers).

so if the triangle offense is an equal opportunity system why did jordan take more than 30% of the fgs?

[swagga]

oh sorry, I forgot that the triangle offense was so good it didn't need jordan to go within one win of the NBA finals.

I see it now. You proposing jordan is overrated and that the true MVP is the triangle. That's an interesting point tbh. Post more.

[FreezingTsmoove]

so if the triangle is such a great offense why did it win only with super stacked teams ( 90s bulls, shaq lakers, 09-10 lakers).

so if the triangle offense is an equal opportunity system why did jordan take more than 30% of the fgs?

I dont think the 09 10 Lakers were super stacked :/

[3ball]

so if the triangle offense is an equal opportunity system why did jordan take more than 30% of the fgs?

Even though all 5 guys get to catch it on the post, MJ naturally shot a far higher frequency when he caught it than everyone else.. Everyone else like Kerr, Grant, Longley - they just handed it off or otherwise passed a much higher proportion of the time.

But the point is that MJ had to score from the post/triple-threat position, as opposed to today's wing player, who gets to dominate the ball with live dribbles and spaced-out, screen-roll action (see gif in OP).

so if the triangle is such a great offense why did it win only with super stacked teams ( 90s bulls, shaq lakers, 09-10 lakers).

The triangle only works if you have a player capable of dominating from the post like MJ or Shaq, and then Pau.. Only players with the very best post skill or ability to dominate on the post.

For example, Carmelo isn't that player.

[swagga]

I dont think the 09 10 Lakers were super stacked :/

I think you should watch some tape then.
Close to prime kobe
Prime gasol
Prime odom
Bynum growing into his own (too bad for injuries, but he was the 2nd best C in the league), his per 36 numbers were very good.
Prima ariza (all-nba defender)
artest had something left in the tank
Dj Mbenga doing work
fisher did adequate work
shannon brown wad mad athletic and put in work on D

Phil coaching.

that was a stacked team son.

[swagga]

Even though all 5 guys get to catch it on the post, MJ naturally shot a far higher frequency when he caught it than everyone else.. Everyone else like Kerr, Grant, Longley - they just handed it off or otherwise passed a much higher proportion of the time.

so why did jordan had a MUCH higher usage rate and number of possessions, if it was such an equal oportunity offense?

But the point is that MJ had to score from the post/triple-threat position, as opposed to today's wing player, who gets to dominate the ball with live dribbles and spaced-out, screen-roll action (see gif in OP).

so in this ideal offense the spacing wasn't optimal?

The triangle only works if you have a player capable of dominating from the post like MJ or Shaq, and then Pau.. Only players with the very best post skill or ability to dominate on the post.
For example, Carmelo isn't that player.

so it's an equal opportunity ideal offense, but only for teams multiple top 10 players in the league, and it didn't actually provide perfect spacing. Your definition of ideal is indeed complicated

[ralph_i_el]

oh sorry, I forgot that the triangle offense was so good it didn't need jordan to go within one win of the NBA finals.

I see it now. You proposing jordan is overrated and that the true MVP is the triangle. That's an interesting point tbh. Post more.

got em

[Fallen Angel]

3ball, can you post a quick list of things wings in the triangle offense need to have to be successful so I can respond with a list of players that I think could fit the bill.

[swagga]

went awol after 2 replies, kids are soft these days i guess

[ralph_i_el]

3Ball leaving this thread like

[ralph_i_el]

Driver: ISH
Protester: 3ball
Bucket: His copypasta









this is now a .gif thread

[Lebron23]

Damn 3ball got destroyed in his own thread.

[sdot_thadon]

Current players that would work (prime versions)

Wade
Lebron
Durant
Curry
Melo
Westbrook

Maybe even more than that but that's just off the top of my head. You focus far too much on playstyle than whether or not they could adjust. It's not just the star but the cast as well. You don't just require one post threat, you need 3. And everyone has to be able to move off ball within it. The biggest hurdle is getting the star to buy in(which includes a mentality shift on the floor), which ironically was MJ's biggest hurdle as well.

Jordan had spit out the words “equal-opportunity offense” a lot during Jackson’s first season, although it hardly worked out that way, and Jackson never planned it to. You don’t take the best scorer in the game and reduce him to just another player among five. Jordan would still have ample opportunity to go one-on-one, for Jackson would bastardize the system to open the floor up provide Jordan those opportunities even as other players moved within the system’s constraints.

So MJ didn't even allow the bulls to play the most optimal form of the glorious system?

[swagga]

3ball, why do you think other teams don't use the triangle more, besides the omnipresent zipper cut?