The best way to build a team, based on empirical evidence

[ILLsmak]

the evidence is the OP's review of events that we see with our own eyes - namely, how teammates are restricted when they have to get the ball to a dominant big or clear the lanes for a ball-dominant player.... and how teammates are not restricted in this way when the #1 option is an off-ball player.

this is factual - do you want data to back this up, or do you understand the game well enough to know that this is what occurs?

and do you need me to show you how Shaq, Hakeem and Lebron's teammates routinely underperformed, and how these guys all lost as the favorite to teams that ran superior offenses.... while Bird and Jordan's teams never did?

or do you know enough about the game and it's history to already know this?

i mean, you let me know: what part of the OP wasn't clear, true, or even common knowledge for that matter?

Shaq n hakeem aren't off ball players? lol.

-Smak

[3ball]

Shaq n hakeem aren't off ball players? lol.

-Smak

you seem like an intelligent guy... so it seems like you'd already know that getting the ball to a big man on the post is obviously completely different than getting the ball to any other player.

[Fire Colangelo]

MJ is the greatest off-ball player of all-time... you apparently don't know much about basketball

Look, MJ is the greatest of all time, and I understand what you're trying to argue. But your arguments are stupid as ****.

1. MJ is not the greatest off ball player of all time.
2. Shaq and Hakeem are not ball dominant players.
3. I'd much rather LeBron handle the ball than Mario Chalmers if that's what "playing to teammates' strength" mean.

[3ball]

but they also had stacked ass teams

If Jordan's team was more stacked than other guys, then the Bulls would not have needed Jordan to put up GOAT scoring numbers, while being 1st Team All-Defense 10 seasons in a row (a record).

but the Bulls needed him to put up 33.6 ppg in the playoffs (#1 all time), and do the same in the Finals (#1 all time).

no one else had to do this... only jordan's team needed him to score that much or be 1st Team All-Defense 10 years in a row... i'm not sure how anyone can argue against this..

[Kvnzhangyay]

If Jordan's team was more stacked than other guys, then the Bulls would not have needed Jordan to put up GOAT scoring numbers, while being 1st Team All-Defense 10 seasons in a row (a record).

but the Bulls needed him to put up 33.6 ppg in the playoffs (#1 all time), and do the same in the Finals (#1 all time).

no one else had to do this... only jordan's team needed him to score that much or be 1st Team All-Defense 10 years in a row... i'm not sure how anyone can argue against this..

That logic is horrible... your penalizing the Bulls' roster talent level because of MJ's greatness? So that means that 86 celtics were not stacked because Bird had to average 26/10/7?

[3ball]

That logic is horrible... your penalizing the Bulls' roster talent level because of MJ's greatness? So that means that 86 celtics were not stacked because Bird had to average 26/10/7?

i love larry, but his 25.8 ppg and 6.8 assists in 1986 regular season, is nowhere near 33.4 ppg and 5.7 assists (Jordan's playoff averages)... i'm not sure what would give you the impression that it was.

and that's what i'm talking about - people equating lesser performance with jordan.

if you can't average 33 points and 6 assists in the triangle, than you ain't as good as jordan - which means no one is as good as jordan, because they can't attain a 33 ppg career playoff average in ANY offense, let alone the triangle.
.

[nba_55]

Where is the evidence?
I say the best way to build a team is to draft a great dominant big man. Evidence: Spurs championships with Duncan, Hakeem championships, Russell championships, Shaq championships,...
Where is yours?

[3ball]

Where is the evidence?
I say the best way to build a team is to draft a great dominant big man. Evidence: Spurs championships with Duncan, Hakeem championships, Russell championships, Shaq championships,...
Where is yours?

First, let's start with Shaq and Lebron's underachievements (losing as the favorite):


Shaq in 1998, getting swept by Jazz
Shaq in 2004, getting owned by the Pistons

Lebron in High School - 2002 HS State Championship
Lebron in 2004 Olympics
Lebron in 2006 World Games
Lebron in 2009 - Lost to Dwight Howard's Magic
Lebron in 2010 - Quit vs. Celtics
Lebron in 2011 - GOAT Choke vs. Dallas
Lebron in 2014 - GOAT loss vs. Spurs

There is no need to list Hakeem's, since he has too many to mention - his regular season and playoff record doesn't even compare to Shaq or Lebron, let alone Jordan... Infact, in each of Jordan's championship years, Hakeem got smashed by the team Jordan beat in the Finals:

Hakeem got swept by the Lakers in 1991 RD1.. Missed the playoffs in 1992.. swept by the Sonics in 1996.. Lost 4-2 to Utah in 1997 WCF.. Lost 3-2 to Utah in 1998 RD1..

... wow, and you guys are saying building around hakeem is better than building around jordan?... clearly, it isn't.



Now I will list Bird and Jordan's Underachievements (losing as the favorite):



.

[nba_55]

First, let's start with Shaq and Lebron's underachievements (losing as the favorite):


Shaq in 1998, getting swept by Jazz
Shaq in 2004, getting owned by the Pistons

Lebron in High School - 2002 HS State Championship
Lebron in 2004 Olympics
Lebron in 2006 World Games
Lebron in 2009 - Lost to Dwight Howard's Magic
Lebron in 2010 - Quit vs. Celtics
Lebron in 2011 - GOAT Choke vs. Dallas
Lebron in 2014 - GOAT loss vs. Spurs

There is no need to list Hakeem's, since he has too many to mention - his regular season and playoff record doesn't even compare to Shaq or Lebron, let alone Jordan... Infact, in each of Jordan's championship years, Hakeem got smashed by the team Jordan beat in the Finals:

Hakeem got swept by the Lakers in 1991 RD1.. Missed the playoffs in 1992.. swept by the Sonics in 1996.. Lost 4-2 to Utah in 1997 WCF.. Lost 3-2 to Utah in 1998 RD1..

... wow, and you guys are saying building around hakeem is better than building around jordan?... clearly, it isn't.



Now I will list Bird and Jordan's Underachievements (losing as the favorite):



.

I honestly don't get your off-ball scoring shit, could you name some good off-ball scoring players outside of bird and Jodan? And BTW, Bird has dominant big men with him, he actually solidifies my argument.

[Marchesk]

... wow, and you guys are saying building around hakeem is better than building around jordan?... clearly, it isn't.

Alright well, I'm going to play devil's advocate because I'm a Wilt stan and favor building around a great big over a perimiter player, although Jordan would be one of the few possible exceptions to that.

Hakeem's teams were competitive before Jordan's. They were in the finals battling that all-time great Celtic squad in Olajuwon's second year, in which they took down the Lakers in 5 games. They had the twin towers and young perimiter talent.

Then Sampson has injury issues which shortened his career and there were issues with other players that ended theirs, so Hakeem ends up with a crappy team for a while.

Meanwhile, Jordan has Pippen and Grant emerge along with a great coaching staff who figured out how best to make that work.

So it's a bit unfair to Hakeem. Now let's give Hakeem Drexler early on, and then compare the Rocket's success to the Bulls. Because that's what Mike had in Pippen, after his first few seasons.

You see the difference there? Hakeem has a better team around him early on, but a worse one after that until Jordan's initial retirement.

[Crose]

- dont draft lebron
- if you draft lebron trade him before free agency so you dont lose everything

[Mr.Kite]

- dont draft lebron
- if you draft lebron trade him before free agency so you dont lose everything

or find a team that lebron wants to go to and make them your trade partners

[tpols]

i love larry, but his 25.8 ppg and 6.8 assists in 1986 regular season, is nowhere near 33.4 ppg and 5.7 assists (Jordan's playoff averages)... i'm not sure what would give you the impression that it was.

and that's what i'm talking about - people equating lesser performance with jordan.

if you can't average 33 points and 6 assists in the triangle, than you ain't as good as jordan - which means no one is as good as jordan, because they can't attain a 33 ppg career playoff average in ANY offense, let alone the triangle.
.

Kobe averaged 29 ppg and 6 apg which is a lot of volume.. Only a couple points less than mj and his help was prime Shaq. Scoring points and putting up stats doesn't mean your support is weak . it's just one part of the game.. If you don't fulfill the others your team won't win. Mj averaged absurd ppg in the 80s too.. And he always lost. What changed?


Scottie out assisted, out rebounded, and out defended Michael.. Rodman and grant obviously out rebounded and out defended Jordan. MJ essentially was the volume point scorer while they did all the dirty work and contributes more in other facets of the game.

If anything Larry created even more for his teammates than Jordan and massively out rebounded him.. Giving more well rounded impact.

[oarabbus]

the sacrifice teammates must make for these guys to score causes them to routinely underperform, and/or the team's offense as a whole simply underperforms given it's talent... and most importantly, the team is prevented from employing the most optimal, strategically sound offense, which leaves them susceptible to losing to a team that IS employing the best brand of offense.

.

Because when I think Magic Johnson, I think "guy who made his teammates and the entire offense routinely underperform"

[3ball]

you guys are all crazy.