2008-2010 Lakers vs. 2011-2013 Heat

[aj1987]

@aj why are you bringing up the cavs? They were one of the best rebounding and low post defense playing teams in the league. LA could never take advantage of the cavs big men like they could Joel anthony and bosh.

Just trying to prove that Ariza, Artest, and anyone else from the Lakers couldn't stop a LeBron without a jumper. What do you think the current LeBron would do to them?

Also odom stats against one of the best rebounding teams in the league in the magic are not comparable to what he'd do to the heat.

True. Odom had 8 a game against the Magic, who were one of the best rebounding teams, but only 6 against the Celtics, who were at the bottom, in terms of rebounding.

[DMAVS41]

@dmavs.. true wade and bosh were better..but the pacers did the same thing to them in 2012 as they did in 2013.. so if the pacers could compete like that so could the lakers.

09 kobes getting slept on.. He was much better than 2012 wade.. Gasol was dirty that year too. He's much better than west or hibbert and they gave miami fits

@aj why are you bringing up the cavs? They were one of the best rebounding and low post defense playing teams in the league. LA could never take advantage of the cavs big men like they could Joel anthony and bosh.

Also odom stats against one of the best rebounding teams in the league in the magic are not comparable to what he'd do to the heat.

Nobody is sleeping on Kobe. It's just that his team is slightly worse going against, as you admitted, a better player. Not to mention would be facing the best perimeter defense he's ever faced in terms of a matchup having to go up against the three headed monster of Wade, Battier, and Lebron.

The Lakers don't have a Pacers level defense in 09...and again Bynum (as you Kobe fans always point out) wasn't as good in 09 as he was in 10. Either way, it's not like Bosh/Haslem/Anthony is some terrible frontline anyway.

You are also always propping up Bosh and saying he's only slightly worse than Gasol...so I have no idea how you think Gasol and Odom are going to be enough to overcome these issues.

Again...2013 is completely different. Wade and Bosh were both playing much worse...and the Lakers were slightly better in 10 than they were in 09 in my opinion. Bynum could have played more minutes in the finals as well...he played 6 more minutes per game in the 10 finals than he did in 09.

It's not like I'm saying the Lakers wouldn't win a game or something, but I think it's pretty clear that best player in series with more help...and a less than ideal matchup for Kobe on both ends...leads to the Heat winning in any accurate hypothetical.

[TheNaturalWR]

I'm convinced, like you, that the 12 Heat beat the 09 Lakers and the 10 Lakers easily beat the 13 Heat.

11 vs 08 is tough...if Lebron plays normal...the 11 Heat destroy the 08 Lakers. The 11 Heat are really under-rated here...and I'm not saying that to prop Dirk/Mavs. I don't need them to get credit...it's just that the 11 Heat with Lebron playing normal would be the best playoff team the Heat have had.

They blew through the East going 12-3...Went 8-2 against the Bulls/Celtics...both very good to great teams. Beat the Bulls in 5 with Wade not playing a great series at all...

People ignore that the 11 Heat were elite on both ends (3rd offense and 5th defense)...and after the first 17 game slow start...they pretty much just dominated the shit out of the league until they were up 15 against the Mavs in game 2 of the finals...

If you could have polled the world at that moment about the Mavs chances to win the series...they would have been astronomical...then this weird thing happened with Lebron getting punked on both ends...and Dirk/Terry just continued their epic onslaught in crunch time that the league has really never seen (Dirk's 4th qtr and clutch play in the 11 playoffs was the best since early 90's Jordan)

So if Lebron doesn't choke...the 11 Heat would beat the 08 Lakers in 4 or 5. If he chokes...I have no idea...the more I think about it...the more I still think they have a chance. The 11 Mavs were better than the 08 Lakers in my opinion...and it's not like the Mavs beat the Heat easily...and I think the Mavs posed a tougher matchup as well.

I have a question, do you think the 11 Heat were the best version of the Heat? Because the majority believes the Heat from 11' on and now are more complete which I strongly disagree with.

[DMAVS41]

I have a question, do you think the 11 Heat were the best version of the Heat? Because the majority believes the Heat from 11' on and now are more complete which I strongly disagree with.

Yes, I do.

After their 9-8 start...they went 49-16 the rest of the way (about a 62 win pace)

They had an elite offense (3rd best) and an elite defense (5th best)

Most importantly, they had a peak Wade as well...and his value is being far too under-rated when we start comparing these teams.

They blew through the East going 12-3...with a combined 8-2 record against a very good Celtics team and deadly Bulls team. What makes it even more impressive is that they backdoor swept the Bulls despite Wade playing subpar in that series.

There was not some flaw with the 11 Heat. All they needed was for their big 3 to play well and they would have dominated the Mavs as well.

I posted this earlier, but so much revisionist history is going on now about the 11 Heat.

Think about it this way;

They were huge favorites going into the finals. They had just dominated the only team people gave a chance to beat the Heat despite Wade not playing great. They enter the finals and win game 1. Then they have a 15 point at home in game 2 in the 4th qtr with 6 minutes left.

Lets pause here...what do you think the odds it would have taken for people to bet the Mavs to win that series at this moment? The entire world would have bet their life savings on the Heat to win it all.

Then something crazy happened. Terry and Dirk got going...and Lebron crumbled on both ends...and the Heat just never recovered as Lebron went into a shell.

Again...it wasn't the team. It was Lebron coming up empty in the biggest series of his life. And it wasn't just offense...his defense was a step slow...his rotations lagging behind...missed rotations even at some points. It is like 99.9 percent on Lebron...it wasn't some team flaw.

Now, do we credit the Mavs for doing that to Lebron? Yes, at least a little as we just saw Lebron go into a similar shell against a much weaker 13 Spurs team than the 11 Mavs, but they couldn't close the door. It was the Spurs that choked and gave new life to the Heat...in 11, Dirk and Terry stomped on the Heat when they were vulnerable.

So if you ask me which Heat team was the best with Lebron playing normal...it's clearly the 11 Heat for me. Again...people are really under-rating just how much better a peak Wade makes a team...

I've put up the numbers a number of times, but nobody even pays attention because they have bought into the narrative;

2011 Heat - 3rd best offense and 5th best defense (despite playing 25 percent of the season with no chemistry and going through growing pains)

2012 Heat - 8th best offense and 4th best defense (both Wade and Bosh declined...and both were hurt at times in the playoffs)

2013 Heat - 2nd best offense and 9th best defense (Wade was like 60% in the playoffs and Bosh was in a slump)


Like I said...people just ignore it. They are really going to not take the most balanced team in terms of elite offense and defense...with a peak Wade and all that he can do as an added bonus?

No, the only reason it's even debatable is because Lebron choked his ass off. Even he didn't...they beat the Mavs in 5 and we are talking about one of the most dominant playoff runs given the competition ever. They should have gone 16-4 in the playoffs...while beating 3 different teams winning 58 or more.

Instead, the meltdown happened and people actually think the injured and slumping 13 Heat were better...

[chazzy]

09 Lakers vs 12 Heat would be a really good series, with LA having a rebounding and interior scoring advantage and Lebron doing his thing. His jumper was a bit off that playoff run so I wonder if Phil would employ a Popovich-esque scheme with Ariza and the Laker bigs roaming the paint. Kobe would still get his as well, especially with Wade being off and on with his knee. Bosh isn't at 100%.

[SamuraiSWISH]

09 Lakers vs 12 Heat would be a really good series, with LA having a rebounding and interior scoring advantage and Lebron doing his thing. His jumper was a bit off that playoff run so I wonder if Phil would employ a Popovich-esque scheme with Ariza and the Laker bigs roaming the paint. Kobe would still get his as well, especially with Wade being off and on with his knee. Bosh isn't at 100%.

Wade wasn't that bad even with the knee in the 2012 playoffs. 23 ppg, 5 rpg, 4 apg

[DMAVS41]

09 Lakers vs 12 Heat would be a really good series, with LA having a rebounding and interior scoring advantage and Lebron doing his thing. His jumper was a bit off that playoff run so I wonder if Phil would employ a Popovich-esque scheme with Ariza and the Laker bigs roaming the paint. Kobe would still get his as well, especially with Wade being off and on with his knee. Bosh isn't at 100%.

I don't really see it that way. Kobe would definitely get his, but he'd have to work his ass of against Wade, Lebron, and Battier.

Wade was still really good though...good enough play his quality defense and still give you like 23/5/5...he'd make Kobe work way harder than normal on both ends.

Bosh wasn't 100%, but he was healthy enough to play 37 minutes a game in the finals (when the two teams would play)

And while Lebron does have weaknesses, so do Kobe and Gasol...and Lebron would just simply be the best player in that series.

12 Wade, even not fully healthy, is better than Gasol

And Bosh and Odom were about as valuable as each other...probably a slight edge to Bosh

And Bynum wasn't impactful enough in 09 to sway anything...

Good series? Sure, it would have been a good series in which the Heat won in 6.

[DMAVS41]

Wade wasn't that bad even with the knee in the 2012 playoffs. 23 ppg, 5 rpg, 4 apg

Yea...the 12 playoffs from Wade are under-rated here. He wast still great on both ends...and for this comparison...still more valuable than Pau Gasol

It just looked worse because the year before he was a beast in the playoffs and looked way better

[SamuraiSWISH]

Either way, I think it's pretty definitive for me:

2011 Heat > 2008 Lakers

If LeBron has performance anxiety:
2011 Heat < 2008 Lakers

2012 Heat > 2009 Lakers
2013 Heat < 2010 Lakers (7 games)

[Suguru101]

Yes, I do.

After their 9-8 start...they went 49-16 the rest of the way (about a 62 win pace)

They had an elite offense (3rd best) and an elite defense (5th best)

Most importantly, they had a peak Wade as well...and his value is being far too under-rated when we start comparing these teams.

They blew through the East going 12-3...with a combined 8-2 record against a very good Celtics team and deadly Bulls team. What makes it even more impressive is that they backdoor swept the Bulls despite Wade playing subpar in that series.

There was not some flaw with the 11 Heat. All they needed was for their big 3 to play well and they would have dominated the Mavs as well.

I posted this earlier, but so much revisionist history is going on now about the 11 Heat.

Think about it this way;

They were huge favorites going into the finals. They had just dominated the only team people gave a chance to beat the Heat despite Wade not playing great. They enter the finals and win game 1. Then they have a 15 point at home in game 2 in the 4th qtr with 6 minutes left.

Lets pause here...what do you think the odds it would have taken for people to bet the Mavs to win that series at this moment? The entire world would have bet their life savings on the Heat to win it all.

Then something crazy happened. Terry and Dirk got going...and Lebron crumbled on both ends...and the Heat just never recovered as Lebron went into a shell.

Again...it wasn't the team. It was Lebron coming up empty in the biggest series of his life. And it wasn't just offense...his defense was a step slow...his rotations lagging behind...missed rotations even at some points. It is like 99.9 percent on Lebron...it wasn't some team flaw.

Now, do we credit the Mavs for doing that to Lebron? Yes, at least a little as we just saw Lebron go into a similar shell against a much weaker 13 Spurs team than the 11 Mavs, but they couldn't close the door. It was the Spurs that choked and gave new life to the Heat...in 11, Dirk and Terry stomped on the Heat when they were vulnerable.

So if you ask me which Heat team was the best with Lebron playing normal...it's clearly the 11 Heat for me. Again...people are really under-rating just how much better a peak Wade makes a team...

I've put up the numbers a number of times, but nobody even pays attention because they have bought into the narrative;

2011 Heat - 3rd best offense and 5th best defense (despite playing 25 percent of the season with no chemistry and going through growing pains)

2012 Heat - 8th best offense and 4th best defense (both Wade and Bosh declined...and both were hurt at times in the playoffs)

2013 Heat - 2nd best offense and 9th best defense (Wade was like 60% in the playoffs and Bosh was in a slump)


Like I said...people just ignore it. They are really going to not take the most balanced team in terms of elite offense and defense...with a peak Wade and all that he can do as an added bonus?

No, the only reason it's even debatable is because Lebron choked his ass off. Even he didn't...they beat the Mavs in 5 and we are talking about one of the most dominant playoff runs given the competition ever. They should have gone 16-4 in the playoffs...while beating 3 different teams winning 58 or more.

Instead, the meltdown happened and people actually think the injured and slumping 13 Heat were better...

Are you still trying to sneak that point in? The 2011 Mavs weren't a better team than the 2013 Spurs, just stop.

[chazzy]

Wade wasn't that bad in the 2012 playoffs. 23 ppg, 5 rpg, 4 apg

Yeah but he was just hard to predict on a game by game basis. His efficiency fluctuated like crazy because he kept getting his knee drained throughout the run. He had a 5 point 15 FG% game, and then that 41/10 68 FG% 2 games later

Yea...the 12 playoffs from Wade are under-rated here. He wast still great on both ends...

Considering he was playing off of a monster Lebron, his efficiency leaves a lot to be desired

[DMAVS41]

Either way, I think it's pretty definitive for me:

2011 Heat > 2008 Lakers

If LeBron has performance anxiety:
2011 Heat < 2008 Lakers

2012 Heat > 2009 Lakers
2013 Heat < 2010 Lakers (7 games)

Exactly how I feel as well...although honestly, I don't think the Heat make it to 7 in the 13 vs 10 series. I think they lose in 5 or 6. The 10 Lakers pose a worse matchup for the 13 Heat than the 13 Spurs did...and were just a much better team. Considering the Spurs should have won in 6...I can't see the Heat getting to 7 against a better team.

[DMAVS41]

Are you still trying to sneak that point in? The 2011 Mavs weren't a better team than the 2013 Spurs, just stop.

Sneak it in? It's not even close. The 13 Spurs are extremely over-rated here. They lucked out with the WB injury...and then couldn't beat a much worse Heat team that the Mavs beat in 6 in 11.

11 Dirk was clearly better than anyone the Spurs had in 13...and Dirk had a better supporting cast than Duncan as well...and Dirk's help actually stepped up while Duncan's didn't really...especially Parker. Terry was way better than Parker...

[DMAVS41]

Yeah but he was just hard to predict on a game by game basis. His efficiency fluctuated like crazy because he kept getting his knee drained throughout the run. He had a 5 point 15 FG% game, and then that 41/10 68 FG% 2 games later

Yea, but I think you act like he was worse than he was.

He put up 21/6/5 against the best defense (celtics)

He put up 26/6/3 against the Pacers

He put up 23/6/5 against the Thunder

It's not like he was just going to have an awful series or something...

[chazzy]

Yea, but I think you act like he was worse than he was.

He put up 21/6/5 against the best defense (celtics) 51.8 TS%

He put up 26/6/3 against the Pacers 53.6 TS%

He put up 23/6/5 against the Thunder 51.6 TS%

It's not like he was just going to have an awful series or something...

Added efficiency.. that was my main point. He got his numbers, but he just wasn't very consistent