Kobe has a strong case over Bird in the all-time list

[kenny817]

LOL Kobe retards

Bird > Kobe





Bird > Kobe


Bird > Kobe

[OldSchoolBBall]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[IGOTGAME]

Sorry, but winning 3 straight MVP's and finishing top 2 in MVP voting 7 times in 8 years and top 3 in voting 8 times in 9 years clearly shows that he is better than Kobe and deserves to be ranked above him all-time. As does the fact that he was getting lots of GOAT praise in the mid-80's; Kobe has never been close to that level, really.

correct me if I'm wrong, MVP are done through media votes in the 80s?

[OldSchoolBBall]

This is a stupid argument. You can say Shaq cant be ranked over bird than using this same logic. And you didn't answer anything in the post you replied to. MVPs aren't the end all be all.

No, you really can't. Shaq's MVP finishes from age 23-31:

9
9
4
6
1
3
3
5
6

Bird:

4
2
2
2
1
1
1
3
2

And yes, MVP's are the first or second-most important criteria when ranking all-time level players. Sucks for Kobe fans (and for Shaq fans, too), but that is the fact of the matter. MVP's are a HUGE part of what makes one player's career GREATER than another's.

[rhythmic]

Kobe WAS just terrible that year - he was on pace to set an NBA record for TO/gm and led the league in getting the ball stiolen from him and getting his shot blocked.

And Shaq was only around for the first 3 seasons listed for Kobe ('02-'04) since I looked at age 23-31). Feel free to take one year off the front for Kobe and add in his 2011 MVP finish of 4th at age 32 instead. But that really doesn't help his case.

Is this guy really this stupid people?
You took 8 years, without even looking at the context.

1) Two of those years were still when Shaquille was on the team.
2) One of those seasons he had nagging injuries and just had a terrible season; missed most games of his entire career as a starter I believe.
3) Played with a lineup consisting of Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Chris Mihm etc.
4) LA acquired Pau Gasol; Kobe led them to three straight final appearances, back to back title wins & an MVP. Finished in the top 3 all three years while being 30+ years of age.

Bird finished #1, #2 & #3 during that same age but he never had a piss poor team for 3 years or had he ever had to defer to a guy who was more dominant then he was. And yes, Bird would be second option on a team with Shaquille.

We're talking about MVP right? The tradition behind the award is you have to win a bunch of games while playing great ball. That automatically puts Kobe at a disadvantage because out of those eight seasons you've named Kobe either had to defer to Shaquille or had a terrible team around him for over half of those years.

[Pushxx]

If you asked any reputable NBA great or experienced, unbiased NBA guru, not one person would say Kobe > Bird on the all time list.

Not one. Kobe is a lock for at least top 15 all time when all is said and done, but he's never gonna breath the Bird/Magic tier.

[Mr. Jabbar]

If you asked any reputable NBA great or experienced, unbiased NBA guru, not one person would say Kobe > Bird on the all time list.

Not one. Kobe is a lock for at least top 15 all time when all is said and done, but he's never gonna breath the Bird/Magic tier.

top 15 lol, more like locked top 7-8 Right now...

also, magic is above bird.

[OldSchoolBBall]

1) Two of those years were still when Shaquille was on the team.

Hey idiot, I was trying to do an apples to apples comparison, because if I just looked at Kobe's years post-Shaq and Bird's healthy years, Kobe fans would say "b...b...but Kobe was older than Bird in 2 of those seasons!" Can't please everyone. Feel free to extrapolate or speculate as to what Kobe's MVP ranking would be in 2002 and 2003 if he were on his own team (hint: not much better than what it was since Shaq and Duncan occupied the top 2 spots; he may move up a spot or so those two seasons).

2) One of those seasons he had nagging injuries and just had a terrible season; missed most games of his entire career as a starter I believe.

Bird had a crippled back for like the last 3 seasons I listed for him - way worse than whatever Kobe has dealt with. Again, stop the excuses.

3) Played with a lineup consisting of Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Chris Mihm etc.

Several GOAT level players (company Kobe is not in) have managed to finish top 3 in MVP voting on bad teams - just as bad as Kobe's '05-'07 cast.

4) LA acquired Pau Gasol; Kobe led them to three straight final appearances, back to back title wins & an MVP. Finished in the top 3 all season while being 30+ years of age.

Kobe was 29 in 2008 when he won his MVP and made one of those Finals appearances.

We're talking about MVP right? The tradition behind the award is you have to win a bunch of games while playing great ball. That automatically puts Kobe at a disadvantage because out of those eight seasons you've named Kobe either had to defer to Shaquille or had a terrible team around him for over half of those years.

Cry me a river. Unfortunately, MVP's are very important when ranking players all time. Nothing you can do, no excuse you make, can change that fact. If you want to make this about who the BETTER player was, then do that. But you're not going to find many people over age 25 who believe that prime Kobe ('06-'09) was a more effective and better player than prime Bird ('84-'87).

[Pushxx]

top 15 lol, more like locked top 7-8 Right now...

also, magic is above bird.

He's top 10 right now, but people could argue 10-15 (not me).

Kobe imo is the third best guard ever. I never said Magic wasn't above Bird. Just said Bird and Magic are in a tier above Kobe. That tier is just below Michael Jordan.

[LA_Showtime]

Kobe MIGHT finish above Bird all-time because of his longevity and rings but he has never been as good as Larry ****ing Bird.

[creepingdeath]

[9erEmpire]

Kobe MIGHT finish above Bird all-time because of his longevity and rings but he has never been as good as Larry ****ing Bird.

I have Kobe above Bird in my all time list already and I don't really have to get in on why...because it's done so many times.

If Bird wasn't born decades earlier than Kobe, this wouldn't even be a debate.

[chazzy]

No, you really can't.

Uh, yes you can. Shaq definitely has a strong case over Bird.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Talk to me when Kobe gets a ring with only 3-5 HOFers per title team.

[LA_Showtime]

I have Kobe above Bird in my all time list already and I don't really have to get in on why...because it's done so many times.

If Bird wasn't born decades earlier than Kobe, this wouldn't even be a debate.

I'd say at this point it's a toss up. I would choose Bird simply because he was more enjoyable to watch, while Kobe has a tendency to piss me off because he goes for individual accolades/puts himself above the team.