Bill Russell: Sam Jones is better then Scottie Pippen?

[VCMVP1551]

Pippen is atleast the 3rd best SF ever behind Bird and maybe Havlicek. Jones I believe is a SG and while I think he was a great player I don't think he was on Pippen's level.

[bdreason]

Agreed. Without the 8+ HOF'ers Russell played with, he wouldn't have won anything.




Trying to diminish Pippen's achievements because of who he played with is laughable.

I wasn't diminishing Pippens achievements. The fact is that Pippen didn't acheive as much as Russell.

If you're going to say that Russell only won because of who he played with (which is exactly what you said), then the same arguement can be made for Pippen, since he wouldn't have won anything without MJ.

[Loki]

Pippen is atleast the 3rd best SF ever behind Bird and maybe Havlicek. Jones I believe is a SG and while I think he was a great player I don't think he was on Pippen's level.

Bird
Dr. J
Baylor
Havlicek
Barry
Pippen

Pippen can at best be put over 2 of the other 5 imo. At best. More likely he's the 4th-6th best SF of all-time.

[Lebron23]

I wasn't diminishing Pippens achievements. The fact is that Pippen didn't acheive as much as Russell.

If you're going to say that Russell only won because of who he played with (which is exactly what you said), then the same arguement can be made for Pippen, since he wouldn't have won anything without MJ.

Scottie Pippen's Teams made it into the NBA Playoffs 16 out of his 17 Season in the NBA. His Airness Michael Jordan missed the NBA Playoffs while playing for the Washington Wizards in a crappy Eastern Conference.

Remember when Jordan retired in 1993, Scottie Pippen being the team leader of the Chicago Bulls take his team into the NBA Eastern Conference Finals in the 1993-94 Season. That is why Pippen is the best sidekick of Michael Jordan because he prove that he can deliver even though Jordan is not on his team.

Michael Jordan unexpectedly retired in 1993, and the 1994 season marked Pippen's stepping out from Jordan's shadow and he performed as one of the best players in the league. That year, he earned All-Star Game MVP honors. He had perhaps his best season, leading the Bulls in scoring, assists, and the entire league in steals, averaging 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.9 steals, 0.9 three-pointers, and 0.8 blocks per game, while shooting 49.1% from the field and a career-best 32% from the three-point line. For his efforts, he earned the first of three straight All-NBA First Team nods, and finished third in the MVP voting. The Bulls finished the season with 55 wins, only two less than their previous championship year with Jordan still on the team.

[L.Kizzle]

Bird
Dr. J
Baylor
Havlicek
Barry
Pippen

Pippen can at best be put over 2 of the other 5 imo. At best. More likely he's the 4th-6th best SF of all-time.

I agree on this ranking, hell some would put 'Nique over Pippen.

[L.Kizzle]

Scottie Pippen's Team made it into the NBA Playoffs 16 out of his 17 Season in the NBA.

Not only did Russell go to the playoffs every season he played, he went to the NBA Finals 12 out of 13 seasons (winning 11 titles at that.) The season the Celtics didn't make the Finals they lost to the 76ers in the Eastern Division Finals (those 6ers are considered one of the greatest teams ever.)

[Lebron23]

Not only did Russell go to the playoffs every season he played, he went to the NBA Finals 12 out of 13 seasons (winning 11 titles at that.) The season the Celtics didn't make the Finals they lost to the 76ers in the Eastern Division Finals (those 6ers are considered one of the greatest teams ever.)

He played in a much weaker era in which the total number of team in the NBA is 10. It is very easy to win several NBA Championship when you are facing the same team every season. Beside we all know that the 1960's and early 1970's Boston Celtics are one of the most stacked team in the history of the NBA. Rings are overrated when your facing a much weaker competition and no one else beside the Los Angeles/Minneapolis Lakers consistently challenging your team in the FINALS.

[dejordan]

He played in a much weaker era in which the total number of team in the NBA is 10. It is very easy to win several NBA Championship when you are facing the same team every season. Beside we all know that the 1960's and early 1970's Boston Celtics are one of the most stacked team in the history of the NBA.

this is a strange offshoot topic. first off the simple counter to this argument is "why didn't every other team win 11 in 13 years?" they all played with just only a handful of teams they had to beat. why the celts every year and not the others? that's not an advantage over the competition since they all played with those circumstances.

however, there are things about that era that made it ideally suited to dynasties. the salary cap, incredibly high salaries, free agency, and a bunch of teams looking to outbid you for your 3rd - 7th guys weren't in effect yet. you could afford to keep a bunch of future hofers together for long stretches of time and even your successful less-heralded players had no reason to leave. success could be maintained.

[G-train]

Rings are weighted too much.

Malone and Barkley would be considered > Duncan if Duncan was drafted by the Celtics and made the conf finals a few times, instead of landing in a dream situation with excellent ongoing management and coaching. Even with that its debatable.

Likewise Pippen. A great star player, but no better than Grant Hill. His dream situation led him to overhyped ability. Yes he was an all star and a great defender. But his offense was not on a Grant Hill's or Jason Kidd's playing field.

Likewise Russell. A awesome defender and almost a point centre, but I'm taking Shaq/Malone/Barkley/Duncan over him every time.

The fact is some all time great players devoted their life to winning a ring, do everything right, and still dont win one. So dont weight rings so much.

[VCMVP1551]

Bird
Dr. J
Baylor
Havlicek
Barry
Pippen

Pippen can at best be put over 2 of the other 5 imo. At best. More likely he's the 4th-6th best SF of all-time.

I agree with Havlicek but none of the other choices. Barry was great and he is close to Pippen's level same with Baylor but Pippen's defense, playmaking ability and 6 rings put him ahead. Pippen was the Bulls primary ball handler and set up the offense during the title run. He played point forward as much as most point guards run the point. Pippen also average nearly 9 rebounds one year.

[L.Kizzle]

Rings are weighted too much.

Malone and Barkley would be considered > Duncan if Duncan was drafted by the Celtics and made the conf finals a few times, instead of landing in a dream situation with excellent ongoing management and coaching. Even with that its debatable.

Likewise Pippen. A great star player, but no better than Grant Hill. His dream situation led him to overhyped ability. Yes he was an all star and a great defender. But his offense was not on a Grant Hill's or Jason Kidd's playing field.

Likewise Russell. A awesome defender and almost a point centre, but I'm taking Shaq/Malone/Barkley/Duncan over him every time.

The fact is some all time great players devoted their life to winning a ring, do everything right, and still dont win one. So dont weight rings so much.

I think rings get as much credit as they need to be.

Malone and Barkely would probably > Duncan but the rings put him slightly over the other 2.


But take for example Chancey Billups. He has a ring and a Finals MVP, but I doubt anyone is picking him over Jason Kidd. Hell, I doubt most would put Gilbert Arenas over him.

[L.Kizzle]

I agree with Havlicek but none of the other choices. Barry was great and he is close to Pippen's level same with Baylor but Pippen's defense, playmaking ability and 6 rings put him ahead. Pippen was the Bulls primary ball handler and set up the offense during the title run. He played point forward as much as most point guards run the point. Pippen also average nearly 9 rebounds one year.

Pippen is not over Baylor and Rick Barry, just no way. Here is one instance were rings doesn't win out. Pippen has more rings, but Baylor and Barry were the better individual players by a long shot. Also consider Rick Barry also has a ring and was part of one of the biggest upsets in NBA Finals history.

Baylor was one of the greatest individual talents the game has ever seen. Baylor basically created basketball above the rim. He wasn't a bad player either, averaged 38 ppg and 19 in the same season.

[VCMVP1551]

Pippen is not over Baylor and Rick Barry, just no way. Here is one instance were rings doesn't win out. Pippen has more rings, but Baylor and Barry were the better individual players by a long shot. Also consider Rick Barry also has a ring and was part of one of the biggest upsets in NBA Finals history.

Baylor was one of the greatest individual talents the game has ever seen. Baylor basically created basketball above the rim. He wasn't a bad player either, averaged 38 ppg and 19 in the same season.

Baylor also took like 34 FGA per game when he averaged 38. Rebound numbers weren't the same back then either. For example a top rebounder today averages 11-13 rpg while a top rebounder back then average 21-23 rpg. I put Pippen ahead of them because he was hands down a better defender and playmaker. How many other forwards ran the offense like he did?

[VCMVP1551]

I forgot Bird too. Bird is hands down the best SF ever IMO. My rankings are Bird and then either Pippen or Havlicek. I'd put Baylor then Barry and that is my top 5. Dr. J would be 6.

[L.Kizzle]

Baylor also took like 34 FGA per game when he averaged 38. Rebound numbers weren't the same back then either. For example a top rebounder today averages 11-13 rpg while a top rebounder back then average 21-23 rpg. I put Pippen ahead of them because he was hands down a better defender and playmaker. How many other forwards ran the offense like he did?

Considering Baylor was a 6'5 small forward, 19.8 rebounds is incredible. 20 rpg was the norn but for big centers and power forwards. Name me a 6'5 F/G in that era who grabbed damn near 20 boards a game?

Well Baylor and Barry were hands down better offensive players then Pippen. Pippen was a playmaker because that's what the offense called on him to be. If Baylor and Barry had to run the offense, I'm pretty sure they could as both were excellent passers. Both averaged over 5 assist countless seasons.