ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #13 - Steve Nash vs. Gary Payton

[Doranku]

They played at a fast pace, that's why the other team scored more.

How's this:

Steve Nash's team records:

01-02 Mavs: 57-25, .695
02-03 Mavs: 60-22, .732
03-04 Mavs: 52-30, .634
04-05 Suns: 62-20, .756
05-06 Suns: 54-28, .659
06-07 Suns: 61-21, .744
07-08 Suns: 55-27, .671
08-09 Suns: 46-36, .561
09-10 Suns: 54-28, .659

Who cares how they won? They freaking won.

Yet with all of that winning, Nash was never able to lead his team to the finals while Payton was... just sayin'.

[NugzHeat3]

My God, Payton MASSACRED PGs in the 90's.

Yeah like the time he massacred Nick Van Exel in the 1995 playoffs. I remember that man. He massacred him so bad that it was the main reason the Lakers upset Seattle.

A lot of the head to head stats GOAT posted don't tell the whole story. It isn't as cut and dry as he's making it out to be.

Nash hasn't guarded Parker at all times and vice versa. They've stuck Barbosa and Bell on Parker for certain periods of time. Same with the Spurs who've put Bowen on Nash to slow him down.

Payton didn't guard PGs at all times, either. The stats make it look like he dominated Stockton in 1996 but Stockton was brutally injured and Seattle really trapped him past half-court and along the baseline forcing him to give up the ball. Of course GP had a lot to do with how effective the traps were but it was a TEAM effort overall. That 1996 Seattle team also loved switching on defense so you'd have to watch the games to see what exactly happened. There's a reason Gary Payton considers John Stockton his toughest match up ever.

It's the same with the 1997 match up vs KJ. Payton helped out a lot on defense and was often matched up with Kidd while Hawkins took KJ.

In 2000, Seattle vs Utah, Shammond Williams guarded Stockton as much as Payton did though GP was more effective in the time he spent.

[Droid101]

Yet with all of that winning, Nash was never able to lead his team to the finals while Payton was... just sayin'.

Oh please. One finals appearance makes up for years and years of winning? And it's not like they were first round exits every year. If not for injuries and bad luck, the Suns probably would have two rings in that span.

Everyone knows the Western Conference Finals were the REAL finals since like, the year 2000.

[EricForman]

Another toughie. I agreed with Blaze's post, especially all the pro-Nash bit. Nash's offense is seriously underrated. If you factor in free throws, passing, and just creating a shot for SOMEONE in his team's uniform, Nash is on the short list of greatest offensive players ever. Short as in like, top 10 short.

At the same time, defense is too important, I'd have to go with GP again.

[Clippersfan86]

Yeah like the time he massacred Nick Van Exel in the 1995 playoffs. I remember that man. He massacred him so bad that it was the main reason the Lakers upset Seattle.

A lot of the head to head stats GOAT posted don't tell the whole story. It isn't as cut and dry as he's making it out to be.

Nash hasn't guarded Parker at all time and vice versa. They've stuck Barbosa and Bell on Parker for certain periods of time. Same with the Spurs who've often put Bowen on Nash to slow him down.

Payton didn't guard PGs at all times, either. The stats make it look like he dominated Stockton in 1996 but Stockton was brutally injured and Seattle really trapped him past half-court and along the baseline forcing him to give up the ball. Of course GP had a lot to do with how effective the traps were but it was a TEAM effort overall. That 1996 Seattle team also loved switching on defense so you'd have to watch the games to soo what exactly happened. There's a reason Gary Payton considers John Stockton his toughest match up ever.

It's the same with the 1997 match up vs KJ. Payton helped out a lot on defense and was often matched up with Kidd while Hawkins took KJ.

In 2000, Seattle vs Utah, Shammond Williams guarded Stockton as much as Payton did though GP was more effective in the time he spent.

If anything you add more to the argument for Payton here. You realize Payton didn't just defend PG's right?? He also guarded the best SG's and occasionally SF's in his career.

[NugzHeat3]

If anything you add more to the argument for Payton here. You realize Payton didn't just defend PG's right?? He also guarded the best SG's and occasionally SF's in his career.

I saw Payton his entire career. Payton's versatility on defense was great and crucial to Seattle's defense.

But we're discussing head to head match ups here and since he often guarded SGs and Seattle switched a lot, it skews the head to head numbers.

[Droid101]

Yeah like the time he massacred Nick Van Exel in the 1995 playoffs. I remember that man. He massacred him so bad that it was the main reason the Lakers upset Seattle.

I love how he left that one off. Payton allowed a second year point guard (in his first playoffs) to abuse him.

But, that wouldn't help Payton's case, would it?

[Clippersfan86]

I saw Payton his entire career. Payton's versatility on defense was great and crucial to Seattle's defense.

But we're discussing head to head match ups here and since he often guarded SGs and Seattle switched a lot, it skews the head to head numbers.

Well if you saw his entire career then you wouldn't be arguing for Nash dude. I watched Gary from about... 96 which was his prime... and I actually got into basketball because of the Sonics. Gary Payton's ALL AROUND game crumbles Nash. If we want to compare Payton to Stockton... who was at least an average defender fine. To compare to someone like Nash who gets burned up by the best guards in the league on a consistent basis though???

I understand for a PG playmaking/passing is more important than defense... but the gap Payton has over him defensively is way bigger than the gap between the two on passing/playmaking. Like I said Payton's prime 9 apg... Nash's 12. Not a huge jump. Yet Nash gives up 5 ppg, 3 rpg, 1 spg and elite man defense to Payton when you compare their best seasons.

[Droid101]

Well if you saw his entire career then you wouldn't be arguing for Nash dude.

And I've been watching Gary from 92. So, I guess that makes me more knowledgeable than you? And I pick Nash.

I understand for a PG playmaking/passing is more important than defense... but the gap Payton has over him defensively is way bigger than the gap between the two on passing/playmaking. Like I said Payton's prime 9 apg... Nash's 12. Not a huge jump. Yet Nash gives up 5 ppg, 3 rpg, 1 spg and elite man defense to Payton when you compare their best seasons.

Payton gives up 2pt%, 3pt%, ft%, etc. Your points are no more valid than ours.

[NugzHeat3]

I love how he left that one off. Payton allowed a second year point guard (in his first playoffs) to abuse him.

But, that wouldn't help Payton's case, would it?

True. And for the people bringing up Nash never making the finals, they should also consider Seattle's historic collapses in 1994 and 1995.

Payton was the leader of those teams, just for the record. Nash has never been part of such postseason meltdowns.

[ihatetimthomas]

I will take Gary Payton. The best 2 way point guard ever to play imo. GP could get it done on offense, get others involved, and was very versatile. He can finish, distribute and work the post. I loved how he could back guys down in the poast. Nash overall was the better passer and shooter, free throw shooter, but I give GP the edge in every other category. Payton's defense was elite, and this is what separates the 2. You knew GP could get you the offense you needed but you also knew he would shut down opposing guards.

[Clippersfan86]

And I've been watching Gary from 92. So, I guess that makes me more knowledgeable than you? And I pick Nash.




Payton gives up 2pt%, 3pt%, ft%, etc. Your points are no more valid than ours.

. That wasn't my point at all with my comment. My point was to put it out there that I too have seen both players in their prime. It's not like I'm a 5 year NBA fan going by stats and achievements. Gary Payton dominated games more than Nash. It's rare in my time watching the Suns from this decade for me to have thought to myself... man Nash is dominating this game... or this series. I've thought that about Amare.. and Joe Johnson but not Nash.

[ThaSwagg3r]

I absolutely hate how one of these guys will have to stop here because both of them should be ahead of Stockton and Kidd.

My vote goes to Steve Nash. In my opinion he is arguably the greatest offensive PG to ever play the game, yes that includes guys like Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson. There was almost nothing that Steve Nash couldn't do offensively except maybe grab offensive rebounds. Steve Nash was one of the most efficient shooters to ever play the game, multiple 90/50/40 seasons, 2x MVP, one of the best passers to ever play, I mean what more could you want? Maybe a little better defense but the reality is that a PG's defense does not make as much of an impact defensively as a wing player or a big man. Because of that you could also cover up a PGs defensive weakness easier.

I really can't find an area offensively where Payton was better than Nash in, posting up is probably the closest thing but Nash was a more efficient scorer. Payton may have scored better in volume (compare their ppg's) but Nash knew how to close out games too.....he wasn't like John Stockton. Nash like Payton knew how and when to assert himself and put the team on his back.

And before somebody talks about how Nash started to thrive because they took away the hand-check. Taking away the hand-check wouldn't make Payton a more efficient shooter or a better passer and he is far behind Nash in both of those categories. Taking away the hand-check would probably make Payton be an inferior defender than what he was known for. People don't understand that it works both ways. Without the hand-check you are now better offensively but worse defensively.



I take Nash over Payton for the same reasons why I would take Nash over Kidd.

[Clippersfan86]

I will take Gary Payton. The best 2 way point guard ever to play imo. GP could get it done on offense, get others involved, and was very versatile. He can finish, distribute and work the post. I loved how he could back guys down in the poast. Nash overall was the better passer and shooter, free throw shooter, but I give GP the edge in every other category. Payton's defense was elite, and this is what separates the 2. You knew GP could get you the offense you needed but you also knew he would shut down opposing guards.

. Like I said earlier. At the end of the day what do you prefer. Someone who gives you 18 and 12... but allows the same scoring from other players.... or someone who gives you 20 and 8 and shuts down the player he's guarding? Think of this mathematically with raw stats. I shouldn't have to write a formula for you guys. If someone scores 20.... but allows 20... they aren't as valuable as someone who scores 20 and holds an opponent to 10. Even with the edge in passing and shooting efficiency.

[Kblaze8855]

Even if we talk team accomplishments lead by X player.. Payton beats Nash.

I think that depends on who you credit. In another case of retrospect decisions on who to favor...Kemp gets forgotten. People at the time...plenty would call those Kemps team. you can find articles on google archives calling Payton Kemps sidekick in 96. Kemp was all NBA before Payton was. And on a higher team for a couple years. Payton really peaked after the Sonics that most remember. GP was at his best on 40 something win teams and a 61 win team in 98 when they got blown out 4 games in a row by the Lakers.

Paytons prime was probably like 94-02 and they made one finals and lost some wicked upsets(94 Nuggets most well know but its not the only one).

After Kemp was gone they didnt really do anything of note. Not beyond what Nash did.

And while Nash had amare...Amare was never considered the best on that team. Kemp and Payton were kinda looked at as co mvps. And early it was just Kemps team with Payton as his sidekick. Bigmen used to get the love. now guards do.

Not that that matters far as who was really the best. But at the time Kemp got a lot of credit. More than any of nashs teammates lately.