Are We Really Going To Act Like LeBron Didn't Average 17 PPG In The Finals???

[Phong]

RRR3 talking about no-calls without providing any example, but doesn't want to talk about the clear BS calls LeBron got with his flopping. His response? "Durr durrr Kobe stans..blah blah"

So predictable.

[Doctor Rivers]

Ok. Tone it down a bit then. We don't need another alphawolf/legend24/nickyoung/lucifer/thelogo.

it's a msg board. don't worry so much.

[chips93]

Did I say LBJ doesn't get BS calls? He does, all superstars do. But there were a few plays in the finals where Mark Jackson, JVG and Mike Breen expressed surprise that LBJ didn't get free throws for.

true, but i think that it was how the refs called the series for every player.

lebron usually gets a couple 50-50 calls a game for barreling down the lane and throwing himself into the defender, wade does the same thing too. the refs just didnt make that call during the finals, like they had for the last few years. but they called it the same for everybody. its perfectly fair

[Phong]

But there were a few plays in the finals where Mark Jackson, JVG and Mike Breen expressed surprise that LBJ didn't get free throws for.

Which plays?

Here's two examples of bullshit calls that gave him FTs: flopping and throwing an elbow...



Basically you're saying that all the BS calls he got in his favor didn't make him more aggressive, but those few calls that supposedly didn't go his way were enough to shut him down for 5 games straight? He needs all the calls to go his way to be aggressive otherwise he just gives up? LeBron must be mentally weaker than I even thought.

[jrong]

Normally this is true. What was shocking about the finals was that Lebron's overall play was so poor. Forget the scoring...his defense, playmaking, and crunch time play were all awful in the series. Especially his defense....it was so bad that it actually hurt the heat.

After watching the series a couple more times now....I don't feel that people understand how historically bad he was. And the circumstances he had (best team, best player, and home court)....make the performance that much worse.

It really was. I have obsessively and masochistically rewatched the series, and there's no other conclusion I can reach then James is 60% responsible for the loss. I'll place 30% blame on Spoelstra, and eveyone else splits up the remaining 10% (I'll even give Wade one or two percent for not being perfect enough to overcome James's ineptitude and for hurting himself by trying to euro-step Cardinal when the guy is so flat-footed he should have just went past him).

(This is not to take credit away from Dallas. Dallas from the top of their rotation to the bottom, and not to mention their coach, was a better team. But, the Heat should have knocked them out before it mattered because they had so much more talent at the top.)

It's true that many of the LeBron threads offer no constructive input other than hate. But, that doesn't mean that posts that actually offer very warranted, substantive criticism are mere hate posts.

The fact of the matter is that LeBron deserves to have his status called into question after not only this year's Finals, but last year's playoffs, the 2008 playoffs, and the 2007 Finals. By LeBron's "status" I mean his presumed superiority.

LeBron's supremacy in the view of the media and the majority of fans is self-evident. It's almost taken as if it's an added clause to the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. And also, LeBron James is the best basketball player in the NBA.

But, there is a growing view is starting to hold that the Emperor has no clothes. And after James's play in this year's Finals especially, but also past big series, the question is legitimate.

[Boston C's]

The supposed "Chosen One", best player in the league, reigning back-to-back MVP.. are we really going to ignore the fact that he averaged a miserable 17 ppg in the finals IN HIS PRIME???

For comparison's sake, let's look at how some other second options fared during their finals series':

'10-11 Jason Terry: 18.0 ppg
'09-10 Pau Gasol: 18.6 ppg
'08-09 Pau Gasol: 18.2 ppg
'07-08 Ray Allen: 20.3 ppg
'06-07 Tony Parker: 24.5 ppg
'05-06 Jason Terry: 22.0 ppg
'04-05 Manu Ginobili: 18.7 ppg
'03-04 Richard Hamilton: 21.4 ppg

and the daggers,

'01-02 Kenyon Martin: 22.0 ppg
'99-00 Jalen Rose: 23.0 ppg

None of these guys were even considered top 10 players in the league during their respective finals appearances.. hell, some of them weren't even the second best player on their team. Yet, they all managed to put up better scoring numbers than "King" James on the biggest stage?

The fact that people are still pegging this guy as the #1 player in the league is just asinine at this point. SMH.

Feel free to post averages of other scrubs who managed to put up better scoring numbers in the finals than LeBrick.

I don't understand how any of these guys were scrubs... hell ray and pau were the franchise players of their teams the yr before the 08 finals

[Indian guy]

OP has always been a LeBron-fearing, Kobe d!ck-sucking scumbag, but he's absolutely right here. Not that Heat-LeBron was ever the best(barely Top 5), but he lost all right to that title in the NBA Finals. I can't wrap my head around all these non-LeBron fans out there ranking him #1. It's like they feel sorry for him or something.

[chips93]

I can't wrap my head around all these non-LeBron fans out there ranking him #1. It's like they feel sorry for him or something.

different people put different weight on the importance of the finals

[DMAVS41]

It really was. I have obsessively and masochistically rewatched the series, and there's no other conclusion I can reach then James is 60% responsible for the loss. I'll place 30% blame on Spoelstra, and eveyone else splits up the remaining 10% (I'll even give Wade one or two percent for not being perfect enough to overcome James's ineptitude and for hurting himself by trying to euro-step Cardinal when the guy is so flat-footed he should have just went past him).

(This is not to take credit away from Dallas. Dallas from the top of their rotation to the bottom, and not to mention their coach, was a better team. But, the Heat should have knocked them out before it mattered because they had so much more talent at the top.)

It's true that many of the LeBron threads offer no constructive input other than hate. But, that doesn't mean that posts that actually offer very warranted, substantive criticism are mere hate posts.

The fact of the matter is that LeBron deserves to have his status called into question after not only this year's Finals, but last year's playoffs, the 2008 playoffs, and the 2007 Finals. By LeBron's "status" I mean his presumed superiority.

LeBron's supremacy in the view of the media and the majority of fans is self-evident. It's almost taken as if it's an added clause to the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. And also, LeBron James is the best basketball player in the NBA.

But, there is a growing view is starting to hold that the Emperor has no clothes. And after James's play in this year's Finals especially, but also past big series, the question is legitimate.

Yep. Its now really interesting. I don't hold it too hard against Lebron for his performance in 07 or 08. In 07 his team just had no business even being there and its understandable why he struggled. In 08 against the Celtics he started off horribly, but really came on strong later in the series. Given what we saw Kobe do against that same very team with much better coaching and help....Its understandable. Even last year I understand why Lebron struggled against a much better Celtics team.

There are no excuses now though. He everything a player could really ever want in the finals. Home court. The best team. The player playing the best on his team....it was on a silver platter. And Lebron "wet the bed" more than any star player has in the finals that I can remember. It was historically bad.

And it wasn't just offense. He was horrible in pretty much every facet of the game. He wasn't aggressive. He wasn't tough. His defense was awful...etc.

Just no excuse for doing that in the heart of his prime in the biggest series of his life. And people calling him the best player last year honestly need to get their head examined.

[ThaSwagg3r]

In the finals.... How many times did we see a Miami possession, especially in the final two games of the series, end badly because of over passing? And how many times did Lebron James get a second touch on these possessions and only contribute a worthless pass to a covered player instead of attacking the defense. LeBron was literally playing hot potato out there and he is the main reason why the Heat were not champions in 2010-11.


The reality is that the all Lebron James had to do was play like a struggling Lebron James and they more than likely would have won the 2011 championship. That is the biggest difference between Wade and Lebron. Lebron didn't even give himself a chance to struggle and it could be because he wanted to continue looking good in the boxscore. Regardless, he just settled into the role of being a very good role player, when that isn't what his team needed at crucial times.

That is the difference between Wade and Lebron, Wade gave himself a chance to struggle in that Bulls series and continued to force the issue despite that. The results? The Heat won the ECF in 5.

Wade contributed in many ways in that Bulls series. He contributed with his great and clutch defense, his play in the clutch in general (especially in Game 5), was still aggressive (unlike LeBron in the NBA Finals) and got to the free throw line and by doing so he put pressure on the defense. He wasn't peripheral like LeBron was. Wade found others way to influence the game. LeBron had virtually no impact in the finals, none, he didn't put any pressure on them and he "checked out" like Stevenson said.

I can accept a star playing poorly more than I can accept a star turning himself into a role player to the detriment of his own team.

[TheAesirsFinest]

It really was. I have obsessively and masochistically rewatched the series, and there's no other conclusion I can reach then James is 60% responsible for the loss. I'll place 30% blame on Spoelstra, and eveyone else splits up the remaining 10% (I'll even give Wade one or two percent for not being perfect enough to overcome James's ineptitude and for hurting himself by trying to euro-step Cardinal when the guy is so flat-footed he should have just went past him).

(This is not to take credit away from Dallas. Dallas from the top of their rotation to the bottom, and not to mention their coach, was a better team. But, the Heat should have knocked them out before it mattered because they had so much more talent at the top.)

It's true that many of the LeBron threads offer no constructive input other than hate. But, that doesn't mean that posts that actually offer very warranted, substantive criticism are mere hate posts.

The fact of the matter is that LeBron deserves to have his status called into question after not only this year's Finals, but last year's playoffs, the 2008 playoffs, and the 2007 Finals. By LeBron's "status" I mean his presumed superiority.

LeBron's supremacy in the view of the media and the majority of fans is self-evident. It's almost taken as if it's an added clause to the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. And also, LeBron James is the best basketball player in the NBA.

But, there is a growing view is starting to hold that the Emperor has no clothes. And after James's play in this year's Finals especially, but also past big series, the question is legitimate.

For me, I'd split the blame 51% (just so I can say majority of the blame) on LeBron, 39% on Spo, 10% on remaining players with Bosh taking 5%.

Good post though. I'm blown away by how people can still rank LeBron as the best player. Maybe top 5, but he doesn't impact the game like Cavs LeBron. That guy put so much pressure on the enemy team through so many ways. This Heat LeBron was 70% of the Cavs LeBron on a good day.

[AlphaWolf24]

Hey, I'm curious, what did Kobe average in the 2000 finals? can you check for me? My internet is kinda slow.

(winning Titles and making people mad since 00')
BTW What did Kobe do in Game 7 of the WCFinals??......the real NBA Finals.

[Doranku]

Hey, I'm curious, what did Kobe average in the 2000 finals? can you check for me? My internet is kinda slow.

It's not really fair to use those stats considering Kobe only played 9 minutes in game 3. If you take that game out, I'm pretty sure his average was higher than 17 ppg.

Normally this is true. What was shocking about the finals was that Lebron's overall play was so poor. Forget the scoring...his defense, playmaking, and crunch time play were all awful in the series. Especially his defense....it was so bad that it actually hurt the heat.

After watching the series a couple more times now....I don't feel that people understand how historically bad he was. And the circumstances he had (best team, best player, and home court)....make the performance that much worse.

My n!gga DMavs.

This is why I didn't bring up his defense, rebounding, playmaking, etc. They weren't worth mentioning. His defense left much to be desired. Like someone said, the dude was playing crazy minutes. Am I supposed to be impressed that a 26 year old, 6'8/250+ dude is grabbing 6-7 rebounds in 45+ minutes? Or that he's dishing 6-7 assists when he's playing hot potato with the ball every time he touches it in the 4th?

People like to talk about Kobe's '04 series and how bad it was, but LeBron had an even worse series in '07. And now this? How can you keep calling this dude the best player in the game with meltdowns like this? I don't get it.. what has he proven, exactly?

OP has always been a LeBron-fearing, Kobe d!ck-sucking scumbag, but he's absolutely right here. Not that Heat-LeBron was ever the best(barely Top 5), but he lost all right to that title in the NBA Finals. I can't wrap my head around all these non-LeBron fans out there ranking him #1. It's like they feel sorry for him or something.

You know LeBron played like dog shit when fcking Indian Guy is over here bad-mouthing the dude and his fans.

[Doranku]

What did LeBron do in game 5 of the ECF? Oh right...

The only game 5 I remember is this one:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...005110CLE.html

[No Name]

now, lets take a look at kobe's numbers from last years fina...
oh wait...

28.6 ppg
8 rpg
4 apg