Bill Russell described George Mikan weighing 280lbs when they first met (~1953-54):

[bagelred]

Bird played against guys like Jordan, Magic, Isiah, Irving, etc. Mikan played against the guy that makes your coffee at Starbucks.

The guy that made my coffee at Starbucks was Michael Ray Richardson. He was pretty damn good at basketball and making a White Chocolate Mocha.

[ThaRegul8r]

there's a guy on Youtube I encountered recently who's soley dedicated to telling everyone Jordan played in a weak era now, saying he only got guarded by 6-3 white guys and wouldnt be as dominant today - his entire channel talks about it

I said this would happen before it started. If you look at how people operate on the internet, I don't see why it should be a surprise or come as a shock.

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

[SilkkTheShocker]

The guy that made my coffee at Starbucks was Michael Ray Richardson. He was pretty damn good at basketball and making a White Chocolate Mocha.

my favorite

[Djahjaga]

A 245-280lb weight range is huge, it is bigger than Olajuwon, Ewing, and Noah. Those guys are guys who I stated are roughly the same HEIGHT as Mikan, but they aren't comparable to his body mass. Noah for example was a 223lb rookie and is listed 232lbs... he's probably closer to 240+ now but still, that's a lot smaller than Mikan idc if he's got 6% body fat. Towards the end of Olajuwon and Ewings careers they probably were in the 260-270 range, but I still don't think they touched 280, and they weren't "all muscle" by that point either. That isn't the point. The point is, Mikan was a big ass dude. His natural frame is huge even by todays standards without juicing, PED's, hours at the gym etc.

Eddy Curry was close to 300 lbs. Kevin Love was 280 when he entered the league and he said he had trouble staying in the game.

I'm not saying Mikan is some tiny chump by any standards (nor am I among those who say Bird would have trouble in today's league, btw), but saying he was 280 lbs doesn't mean he had the physical presence of Ewing or Olajuwon, let alone someone like Roy Hibbert who's actually 280.

Mikan made a brief comeback after his initial retirement and couldn't keep up with the game because of the newly adopted shot-clock. I'm pretty liberal in my comparisons of players throughout eras, but I generally stop at the adoption of the shot clock. In other words, I'm pretty confident most players from 1960 onward could compete well in today's league, but the game was so different pre 1954-55 that I think comparison is stupid.

And yes, I know the shot clock was primarily introduced to discourage stall tactics used against Mikan himself.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

How much do Dwight and Bynum weigh?

[Whoah10115]

He talks about it in one of the parts (9 total) of his interview with Tim Duncan. I think it's in this part:
http://www.nba.com/spurs/multimedia/...uncan_pt2.html

...280lbs is MASSIVE even by today's standards, which greatly helps explain his dominance. 6-10 (which is extremely likely to be ~his w/o shoes height) would be roughly Patrick Ewing, Joakim Noah, Hakeem Olajuwon's height etc which is about typical of a good big man. As a "skinny" rookie his list weight was 245lbs (5lbs heavier than Dwight Howard as a rookie). And w/o bulking his arms up he eventually filled out to 280lbs which is LSU Shaq / Philadelphia Wilt territory, and still about 10lbs heavier than Dwight. - "farm strong". Imagine if he took HGH and spent hours a day at the gym, he would potentially be like 300+ if he played in the modern era

http://www.mearsonlineauctions.com/L...3b6e8e_lg.jpeg

Mikan isn't going to just add muscle thru weight training. He has fat on his body that would be trimmed, which would lower his weight.


Added to that, he's not athletic. That has nothing to do with whether or not he's going to be a great player in this league, but adding weight could cause him to be even slower. The farm boy strength thing you said is spot on, but he has to have some level of athleticism. Working in the gym, the way you're suggesting, is kinda messing with that natural farm boy strength. That's gonna hinder him, so I don't see him buffing up the same way.


Hakeem was light and clearly not as big as Patrick. And that fact is exactly why people are being simple-minded and dumb when they call him a PF in a Center's body. Hakeem is slim. Ewing is a big guy. He clearly wasn't that interested in working out his arms like that and that would only add to his weight.


Noah is even lighter than Hakeem and is not a good comparison. Noah was a stick in college who added pure muscle and even took away from his agility and his athleticism...simply because he was too skinny to play center in the NBA...and probably not strong enough to play either power position. His is a lot of mass muscle over a skinny frame. Alonzo would be a more relevant comparison, tho he is an inch shorter.

[CavaliersFTW]

Eddy Curry was close to 300 lbs. Kevin Love was 280 when he entered the league and he said he had trouble staying in the game.

I'm not saying Mikan is some tiny chump by any standards (nor am I among those who say Bird would have trouble in today's league, btw), but saying he was 280 lbs doesn't mean he had the physical presence of Ewing or Olajuwon, let alone someone like Roy Hibbert who's actually 280.

Mikan made a brief comeback after his initial retirement and couldn't keep up with the game because of the newly adopted shot-clock. I'm pretty liberal in my comparisons of players throughout eras, but I generally stop at the adoption of the shot clock. In other words, I'm pretty confident most players from 1960 onward could compete well in today's league, but the game was so different pre 1954-55 that I think comparison is stupid.

And yes, I know the shot clock was primarily introduced to discourage stall tactics used against Mikan himself.

Draftexpress says 255, and go find pics of George Mikan ever looking that fat

[CavaliersFTW]

Mikan isn't going to just add muscle thru weight training. He has fat on his body that would be trimmed, which would lower his weight.


Added to that, he's not athletic. That has nothing to do with whether or not he's going to be a great player in this league, but adding weight could cause him to be even slower. The farm boy strength thing you said is spot on, but he has to have some level of athleticism. Working in the gym, the way you're suggesting, is kinda messing with that natural farm boy strength. That's gonna hinder him, so I don't see him buffing up the same way.


Hakeem was light and clearly not as big as Patrick. And that fact is exactly why people are being simple-minded and dumb when they call him a PF in a Center's body. Hakeem is slim. Ewing is a big guy. He clearly wasn't that interested in working out his arms like that and that would only add to his weight.


Noah is even lighter than Hakeem and is not a good comparison. Noah was a stick in college who added pure muscle and even took away from his agility and his athleticism...simply because he was too skinny to play center in the NBA...and probably not strong enough to play either power position. His is a lot of mass muscle over a skinny frame. Alonzo would be a more relevant comparison, tho he is an inch shorter.

Hey, I don't disagree that it might mess up his atheticism - I think adding bulk messes up a lot of players athleticism today. But for whatever reasons players seem to feel pressure to keep packing on muscle mass because that's what a lot of them do even if the result seems to be less mobility or agility. That's just how it seems to be this era - guys want to be immovable objects.

[Colbertnation64]

Eddy Curry was close to 300 lbs. Kevin Love was 280 when he entered the league and he said he had trouble staying in the game.

I'm not saying Mikan is some tiny chump by any standards (nor am I among those who say Bird would have trouble in today's league, btw), but saying he was 280 lbs doesn't mean he had the physical presence of Ewing or Olajuwon, let alone someone like Roy Hibbert who's actually 280.

Mikan made a brief comeback after his initial retirement and couldn't keep up with the game because of the newly adopted shot-clock. I'm pretty liberal in my comparisons of players throughout eras, but I generally stop at the adoption of the shot clock. In other words, I'm pretty confident most players from 1960 onward could compete well in today's league, but the game was so different pre 1954-55 that I think comparison is stupid.

And yes, I know the shot clock was primarily introduced to discourage stall tactics used against Mikan himself.

I don't like to compare players at all. For instance, Mikan was an amazing player and I leave it at that.

However, he had taken one year off. Then when he came back he averaged 10/8 in 20 min. 18/14.5/2.5 per 36 MIN.

His retirement had part to do with injuries, his body wasn't keeping up much anymore. I don't think the shotclock had as much to do with it as I hear.

edit: Not to mention he came in the middle of the season

[Djahjaga]

Draftexpress says 255, and go find pics of George Mikan ever looking that fat

I can't find the interview where he says it, but this article seems to have gotten the same info from him:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/135011583.html


As far as finding pics of Mikan, can I use the same response you do when people ask you for visual evidence of players?

Edit: Found it. Around the 2:08 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3Rux_I-R00


And why are we going with Love's listed weight but going with anecdotal evidence from Bill Russell on Mikan's weight from 50+ years ago? At least Love himself admits to his weight, and then only a few years after losing most of it. Every source online lists Mikan as 245.

[CavaliersFTW]

How much do Dwight and Bynum weigh?

Dwight 240lbs (rookie) - 270lbs (current)

Bynum is likely 290+ the last few seasons, I don't know what his rookie playing weight was

[Djahjaga]

I don't like to compare players at all. For instance, Mikan was an amazing player and I leave it at that.

However, he had taken one year off. Then when he came back he averaged 10/8 in 20 min. 18/14.5/2.5 per 36 MIN.

His retirement had part to do with injuries, his body wasn't keeping up much anymore. I don't think the shotclock had as much to do with it as I hear.

edit: Not to mention he came in the middle of the season

Yeah, the reasons for Mikan's decline are definitely debatable.

I guess where we differ is on the impact external factors (such as rules, but also league trends) have on players. You don't like to compare players (very admirable, btw) and I find it impossible not to simply because there are stark contrasts between eras. I think that's what makes the history of basketball so interesting. It's so hard to compare players across eras, but you never really stop wondering how Chamberlain would do against Shaq or how many titles Russell would win today.

Do you think that, regardless of the rules, some players will always be great? If so, how much can you change the rules and still have this be true?

I just think there's a very clear conceptual point at which rules (and other external factors) do affect the game. The question is how much? I think Chamberlain would destroy today's league, but I don't think he'd score much more than 30 PPG and rebound more than 15 (granted, a 30/15/3/3/2 year would be f*cking amazing. I'm depressed that I'll never be able to see that, now...). As for Mikan, I'm more skeptical.

[9erempiree]

Can we finally put an end to this "farmer's boy" strength. One of the biggest misconception in training history and basketball history. Nobody has any of this so-called strength and if they did, it doesn't translate to real world training.

What are these farm boys going to do, lift hay? Last time I checked hay is a constant weight. You can't load up and go heavier. What they going to do, stack and lift 3 at a time?

[Colbertnation64]

Yeah, the reasons for Mikan's decline are definitely debatable.


Do you think that, regardless of the rules, some players will always be great? If so, how much can you change the rules and still have this be true?

I can't lie, it is always interesting to think about what Wilt or Russell would do today! And I do agree that they'd be at the very top.

My view is that whether or not a player would be great today doesn't matter. Mikan won 7 titles(5 in the NBA) and just destroyed every league he played in. He was so good, when the NBL and BAA merged to form the NBA the BAA actually wanted to make the Lakers fold so Mikan could be put onto a bigger market team like New York.

With someone that powerful no matter what changes in the sport of basketball, I think we need to remember them as one of the greats

But if you're forcing me to decide if great players would be great no matter what, I'd say for the most part yes. My main reasoning is the "bridge" argument. Guys like Lovelette and Pettit played against the best of the 50's and the best of the 60's yet played very well. Mikkelsen played alongside Elgin Baylor ect. ect. Kareem is the most famous example, I'm sure you've heard that argument. Despite any rules changes, the guys that I've listed along with many others excelled.

I don't know how much the rules would have to change before I reconsidered things to be honest. The rules have changed a lot since the 50's but really the core fundamentals of basketball haven't changed at all. Starting as early as the 60's you already start to see "modern" basketball.

[9erempiree]

I don't like to compare players at all. For instance, Mikan was an amazing player and I leave it at that.

However, he had taken one year off. Then when he came back he averaged 10/8 in 20 min. 18/14.5/2.5 per 36 MIN.

His retirement had part to do with injuries, his body wasn't keeping up much anymore. I don't think the shotclock had as much to do with it as I hear.

edit: Not to mention he came in the middle of the season

"His body wasn't keeping up" therefore, there is no way he can play in today's era where there is a shot clock. Shot clock was implemented to keep the pace up and not some slow it down and rest during possessions.

I think the shot clock inadvertently caused his body to break down as the tempo of the game was quicker. That's the reason why they put it in.