Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

[3ball]

Bosh averaged 12.1 PPG and Kukoc averaged 10.8. Intentionally fudging stats as usual to prop up your hero

Im doing it by memory and it changes nothing

D Wade 2013 PO - 15.9 on 46%
C Bosh. 2013 PO - 12.1 on 46%
R Allen. 2013 PO - 10.2 on 43%

Pippen 1996 PO - 16.9 on 39%
Kukoc. 1996 PO - 10.8 on 39%


So Bron had way more help.. he's a fraud and you all go for it

[RRR3]

Let’s use your beloved OBPM....

96 playoffs
Pippen 4.2
Kukoc 1.5
Ron harper 1.9


13 playoffs
Wade 1.1
Bosh 0.3
Ray Allen 3.0





Looks like MJ had more help from people playing 20+ minutes

[3ball]

Let’s use your beloved OBPM....

96 playoffs
Pippen 4.2
Kukoc 1.5
Ron harper 1.9


13 playoffs
Wade 1.1
Bosh 0.3
Ray Allen 3.0





Looks like MJ had more help from people playing 20+ minutes

Only the Finals matter, not stats from a weak East

Finals Gamescore

2013 Wade 14.9
2013 Bosh 12.1

1996 Pippen 13.4
1996 Rodman 10.2

1998 Pippen 13.0
1998 Kukoc 11.5

^^^ So Lebron's 2013 run had better help than MJ's 96' and 98'

HOF teammates

13' Lebron - 3
96' Jordan - 2
93' Jordan - 1

^^^ So Lebron's 2013 run had better help than both of MJ's three-peats

[AussieSteve]

They were a kukoc miracle away from an 0-3 deficit

That was one of those weird series where wacky shit happens and the loser overachieved, like the 19' clippers

And it's disgraceful for you to give Pippen credit for that series when he had possibly the worst 1st option performance ever - 21 on 41% with 3 chokes in 1 series (sit-out game, dumb foul game, horrific gm 7).

Now I can understand if Pippen averaged 23/11 and upset Magic's 1 seed to make the conference finals like KJ in 90'... Or of he averaged 31 on 60% to lead the bulls to the Finals like Worthy in the 87' WCF... or drexler leading the blazers to 2 Finals and averaging 26 against the bad boys and then MJ... Or Kemp leading the Sonic's in scoring on the way to the Finals.

[COLOR="Navy"]But pippen has nothing like this[/COLOR] - all he has is a horrible 2nd round performance like Kyrie in 19' playoffs ... It's nothing compared to those other guys, but the rings give him inflated/fake accolades and props that he otherwise wouldn't get just based on his play
..


^^^ fake or inflated accolades that only occurred because the rings boosted his profile, plus he used a 3-peat system that he was nothing without - he'd be just another 18 ppg player without the rings or system

various guys were better (below)




Stockton was better:

Stockton 90-99':[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 22.6 PER.. 0.216 ws.. 5.2 obpm.. 14.9.. 2.9.. 11.9.. 61.4 ts
Pippen... 90-99':[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 20.2 PER.. 0.169 ws.. 3.3 obpm.. 19.2.. 7.2.. 5.9.. 54.4 ts..

Stockton 90-99' PO:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 19.7 PER.. 0.156 ws.. 4.2 obpm.. 13.8.. 3.0.. 10.5.. 56.0 ts
Pippen... 90-99' PO:[COLOR="White"].'[/COLOR] 19.4 PER.. 0.154 ws.. 2.8 obpm.. 19.1 ppg.. 7.9.. 5.5.. 52.3 ts


KJ was better:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]KJ RS[/COLOR]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 17.9.. 3.3.. 9.1.. 58.5 ts.. 118 ortg.. 20.7 PER.. 0.178 ws/48
[COLOR="Navy"]Pip RS[/COLOR]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 16.2.. 6.4.. 5.2.. 53.6 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.6 PER.. 0.146 ws/48

[COLOR="DarkRed"]KJ PO[/COLOR]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 19.3.. 3.3.. 8.9.. 55.7 ts.. 113 ortg.. 19.1 PER.. 0.117 ws/48
[COLOR="Navy"]Pip PO[/COLOR]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 17.5.. 7.6.. 5.0.. 52.4 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.4 PER.. 0.140 ws/48


Kemp was better:

S KEMP 1996 PO: 20.9 ppg.. 10.4 rpg.. 1.5 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 57.0 fg.. [COLOR="Blue"]64.0 ts[/COLOR]
PIPPEN 1996 PO: 16.9 ppg..... 8.5 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 2.6 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 39.0 fg.. 47.3 ts

S KEMP 1996 FINALS:. 23.3 ppg.. 10.0 rpg.. 2.2 apg.. 1.3 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 55.1 fg.. [COLOR="Blue"]63.3 ts[/COLOR]
PIPPEN 1996 FINALS:. 15.7 ppg..... 8.2 rpg.. 5.3 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg.. 34.3 fg.. 42.9 ts

You are deranged. Which we already knew, but every single post you make proves it more and more.

Worthy was on the Showtime lakers. HE never led a team past anyone, because HE was never the best player or leader on his team!!

KJ in 1990 scored 22ppg in the series he beat the lakers. TOM CHAMBERS ALSO SCORED 22PPG AND HORNACEK SCORED 21PPG. That RS, Chambers scored 27ppg and KJ scored 22ppg. ie, KJ was NOT the best player on the team.

Kemp never won a playoff series as the best player on his team. And he never averaged more than 21.6ppg in any post season that went beyond the first round!

Regarding Drexler, I'm not saying that Pippen was definitively better than him, but nor was Drexler definitively better that Pippen. I think they were on the same level. Drexler didn't get out of the first round until 1990. In 1990 when he first made the finals, he was one of 3 players on his team who averaged 21ppg in that post season. Ie. He had way more help than Pippen.

When did Stockton ever show that he could carry a scoring load? This seems to be your sole criteria for comparing players. So how can you say Stockton is better? Is that why you have to switch the narrative / benchmark to advanced metrics for this comparison?

Pippen is probably better than all these guys, and certainly better than all except Drexler.

[iamgine]

Were these small forwards also DPOY level defender?

3ball: oh well that's not important.


How does one even argue like this.

[3ball]

You are deranged. Which we already knew, but every single post you make proves it more and more.

Worthy was on the Showtime lakers. HE never led a team past anyone, because HE was never the best player or leader on his team!!

KJ in 1990 scored 22ppg in the series he beat the lakers. TOM CHAMBERS ALSO SCORED 22PPG AND HORNACEK SCORED 21PPG. That RS, Chambers scored 27ppg and KJ scored 22ppg. ie, KJ was NOT the best player on the team.

Kemp never won a playoff series as the best player on his team. And he never averaged more than 21.6ppg in any post season that went beyond the first round!

Regarding Drexler, I'm not saying that Pippen was definitively better than him, but nor was Drexler definitively better that Pippen. I think they were on the same level. Drexler didn't get out of the first round until 1990. In 1990 when he first made the finals, he was one of 3 players on his team who averaged 21ppg in that post season. Ie. He had way more help than Pippen.

When did Stockton ever show that he could carry a scoring load? This seems to be your sole criteria for comparing players. So how can you say Stockton is better? Is that why you have to switch the narrative / benchmark to advanced metrics for this comparison?

Pippen is probably better than all these guys, and certainly better than all except Drexler.

With the money on the line, Pippen wasn't even the 1st option over kukoc, let alone over Magic and Kareem like 31 ppg Worthy in the 87' WCF... Nor did pippen lead the team in scoring in the 87' playoffs, 88' playoffs, or get FMVP in 88'.. Pippen could never do these things

Pippen simply never led his team in scoring like Kemp or Worthy, or led his team to the Finals like worthy, kemp or drexler

And obviously, he can't beat the 1 seed to make the conference finals and win 55 games every year like KJ, while getting 23/11 in his sleep

All these guys were better than pippen by virtue of doing these things that Pippen could never do - pippen's rings simply inflate his inferior accomplishments over the SUPerior achievements of these guys.. And his stats are much worse than these guys of course
.

[3ball]

Were these small forwards also DPOY level defender?

3ball: oh well that's not important.


How does one even argue like this.

The gap between Kemp/Drexler/Worthy and pippen defensively is smaller than the gap offensively

Pippen only gave the Bulls the #7 defense in the first 3-peat without rodman.. lots of guys had higher ranked defenses/better defensive help then that.. you guys overrate how much pippen's defense should count as part of mj's "help"..

Pip is the only guy where you guys consider defense, yet him and MJ were only worth the #7 defense - many guys had more defensive help than this.. bulls had zero rim protection for 6 rings - pippen/mj simply gave the bulls a chance defensively versus other teams that had great rim protection and more good defenders.. him and MJ didn't give the bulls a better defense (only #7) - they simply made them competitive defensively
.

[iamgine]

Pippen didn't give Bulls better defense.......

I guess it must be Steve Kerr then


How does one even argue like this

[3ball]

Pippen didn't give Bulls better defense.......

^^^ then the rest of the league

only #7

#readingcomp

I guess it must be Steve Kerr then

Again, reading comp.. I added the bolded below for your challenged reading comp:

Pippen only gave the Bulls the #7 defense in the first 3-peat without rodman.. lots of guys had higher ranked defenses/better defensive help then that.. you guys overrate how much pippen's defense should count as part of mj's "help"..

Pip is the only guy where you guys consider defense, yet him and MJ were only worth the #7 defense - many guys had more defensive help than this.. bulls had zero rim protection for 6 rings - pippen/mj simply gave the bulls a chance defensively versus other teams that had great rim protection and more good defenders.. him and MJ didn't give the bulls a better defense than the rest of the league (only #7) - they simply made them competitive defensively
.

How does one even argue like this

With the money on the line, Pippen wasn't even the 1st option over kukoc, let alone over Magic and Kareem like 31 ppg Worthy in the 87' WCF... Nor did pippen lead the team in scoring in the 87' playoffs, 88' playoffs, or get FMVP in 88' like Worthy.. Pippen could never do these things or be the top scorer on a Finals team, let alone champion

Pippen simply never led his team in scoring like Kemp or Worthy, or led his team to the Finals like worthy, kemp or drexler

And obviously, he can't beat the 1 seed to make the conference finals and win 55 games every year like KJ, while getting 23/11 in his sleep

All these guys were better than pippen by virtue of doing these things that Pippen could never do - pippen's rings simply inflate his inferior accomplishments/stats over the SUPerior achievements of these guys.. And his stats are much worse than these guys of course

[Manny98]

Only the Finals matter, not stats from a weak East

Finals Gamescore

2013 Wade 14.9
2013 Bosh 12.1

1996 Pippen 13.4
1996 Rodman 10.2

1998 Pippen 13.0
1998 Kukoc 11.5

^^^ So Lebron's 2013 run had better help than MJ's 96' and 98'

HOF teammates

13' Lebron - 3
96' Jordan - 2
93' Jordan - 1

^^^ So Lebron's 2013 run had better help than both of MJ's three-peats

Dis nikka moving goalposts like a motherf*cker

[3ball]

Did nikka moving goalposts like a motherf*cker

You did it first by bringing up OBPM after the raw stats showed that Wade/Bosh produced more in the 13' playoffs than Pippen/Kukoc in the 97' playoffs ..

So I brought up gamescore and HOF's

bruh, the 13' Heat had 4 HOF - their 2nd option was basically Pippen in the Finals (20/4/5 on 48%) and the Heat had a top 3 PF and the pre-curry goat shooter.. and birdman, haslem, and Battier as good role players.. that's just an unfair assemblage of talent

[Hey Yo]

You did it first by bringing up OBPM after the raw stats showed that Wade/Bosh produced more in the 13' playoffs than Pippen/Kukoc in the 97' playoffs ..

So I brought up gamescore and HOF's

bruh, the 13' Heat had 4 HOF - their 2nd option was basically Pippen in the Finals (20/4/5 on 48%) and the Heat had a top 3 PF and the pre-curry goat shooter.. and birdman, haslem, and Battier as good role players.. that's just an unfair assemblage of talent

All 4 combined for 3pts in 67mins of play in game 7 of the 2013 Finals.


WITNESS

[3ball]

All 4 combined for 3pts in 67mins of play in game 7 of the 2013 Finals.


WITNESS

Lebron = net negative for the 2013 Finals

so the Heat lost when Lebron was on the floor, and only won because various teammates were positive - his teammates literally saved him

only the colluding lebron can win a title being a net negative

[Hey Yo]

Lebron = net negative for the 2013 Finals

so the Heat lost when Lebron was on the floor, and only won because various teammates were positive - his teammates literally saved him

only the colluding lebron can win a title being a net negative

All said and done, LeBron led his team in points, rebounds, assists and steals when he was on the floor.



WITNESS

[3ball]