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  1. #16
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Shaq played like 51 games that season

  2. #17
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Flpiii said the guy who created the site that you referenced above for RAPM, didn't have digitized play-by-play before 2001, which is crucial to obtain RAPM - your site just uses boxscore data and is not a real RAPM:

    http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...0&postcount=62

    otoh, the APBR metrics site used by ESPN that I posted previously, DOES have digitized play-by-play, so it IS a true RAPM...

    from now on, we should refer to the APBR metrics board instead of the site you posted, since the one you posted isn't a real RAPM.

    here's the APBR metrics site that has the real 1997 RAPM:

    http://apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8536
    http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt...990s-rapm.html
    .
    Last edited by 3ball; 01-12-2015 at 09:16 AM.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by mehyaM24
    i'm not interested with perception. i watched all throughout the 90s and save for 90-92ish, i never ONCE thought jordan was the clear-cut, best player. not even close actually.

    RAPM, one of the best advanced metrics for gauging a players individual impact (less margin of error than a stat like PER), merely backs my opinion on the matter. neutralizing the individuals impact, it shows us that players who essentially had the same ROLE did what they did, and how they directly changed their respective teams' outcome.

    of course, jordan was the most skilled perimeter player at the time. perhaps the greatest volume scorer in history, as well - but in team basketball its IMPACT>SKILL, every. single. time. (why i would take shaq & kareem > hakeem)
    So in 1993 who was the best player in the league - Barkley who won the MVP or Jordan who was FMVP with an NBA record for ppg in the Finals or Hakeem ?

  4. #19
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball
    Flpiii said the guy who created the site that you referenced above for RAPM, didn't have digitized play-by-play before 2001, which is crucial to obtain RAPM - your site just uses boxscore data and is not a real RAPM:
    correct - but the data STILL has less margin of error than PER, winshares and most other advanced metrics.

    otoh, the APBR metrics site used by ESPN that I posted previously, DOES have digitized play-by-play, so it IS a true RAPM...
    this is NPI though. like "fake" regressed rapm, you dont get the results RPI gives you (RPI = defacto 100% rapm from 1998-now).

    also keep in mind, this metric i use isn't the END ALL BE ALL when i determine and evaluate who the best players are.

    so in conclusion: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com - will be used as a reference point for these threads despite 1996 and below being "fake" RAPM (still better than most adjusted stats).

    hope that clears up any confusion.

  5. #20
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by julizaver
    So in 1993 who was the best player in the league - Barkley who won the MVP or Jordan who was FMVP with an NBA record for ppg in the Finals or Hakeem ?
    i'm referring to their careers. players, shaq/kareem, i would draft over hakeem.

    with that said, i have maintained on a number of occasions that 93-95 was hakeem's league.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by mehyaM24
    correct - but the data STILL has less margin of error than PER, winshares and most other advanced metrics.



    this is NPI though. like "fake" regressed rapm, you dont get the results RPI gives you (RPI = defacto 100% rapm from 1998-now).

    also keep in mind, this metric i use isn't the END ALL BE ALL when i determine and evaluate who the best players are.

    so in conclusion: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com - will be used as a reference point for these threads despite 1996 and below being "fake" RAPM (still better than most adjusted stats).

    hope that clears up any confusion.
    Prior-Informed RAPM is the best version of RAPM, but Non-Prior-Informed with digitized play-by-play is 2nd best, and vastly superior to the fake boxscore RAPM with no play-by-play from the stats-for-the-nba site you referenced.

    you can't use the stats-for-the-nba site, when it's RAPMs prior to 2001 are useless boxscore stats, and inferior to the NPI RAPM from the ABPR metrics site that has digitized play-by-play.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by mehyaM24
    i'm referring to their careers. players, shaq/kareem, i would draft over hakeem.

    with that said, i have maintained on a number of occasions that 93-95 was hakeem's league.
    Didn't Shaw only play 51 games in 97

  8. #23
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by mehyaM24

    with that said, i have maintained on a number of occasions that 93-95 was hakeem's league.
    what a joke - in 1993, hakeem got bounced in the 2nd round.

    meanwhile, jordan broke the Finals PPG record and 3-peated... the first time anyone had 3-peated since the 60's Celtics.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball
    Prior-Informed RAPM is the best version of RAPM, but Non-Prior-Informed with digitized play-by-play is 2nd best, and vastly superior to the fake boxscore RAPM with no play-by-play from the stats-for-the-nba site you referenced.
    vastly? i dont know about that, but it is better. UNTIL we get data for 1996 and prior, stats-for-the-nba (made by ESPN's founder of RAPM) still has the best alternative.

    you can't use the stats-for-the-nba site, when it's RAPMs prior to 2001 are useless boxscore stats, and inferior to the NPI RAPM from the ABPR metrics site that has digitized play-by-play.
    npi is included on this website for 2001 and later, but once again, it still has the only available RAPM prior to 97. this will continued to be used given that it is STILL better than all advanced metrics sans NPI/RPI RAPM that attempts to sterilize individual impact.

    btw, in my 1998 thread, i pointed out shaq led all players with regressed AND rpi RAPM. cheers.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball
    what a joke - in 1993, hakeem got bounced in the 2nd round.

    meanwhile, jordan broke the Finals PPG record and 3-peated... the first time anyone had 3-peated since the 60's Celtics.
    you can bump my 1993 thread to discuss that year. i rather not derail this one.

    i will say this.. hakeem led the league in blocks, was top 4 in scoring, rebounding, and 2nd in PER - simply did more for his team, as all major box score categories suggest (regression RAPM rates him ahead of jordan, as well).

  11. #26
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by mehyaM24

    vastly? i dont know about that, but it is better. UNTIL we get data for 1996 and prior, stats-for-the-nba (made by ESPN's founder of RAPM) still has the best alternative.
    you are missing what Flpiii said - for a RAPM to have any legitimacy, it must be based upon digitized play-by-play... without this, it's just useless boxscore stats.

    the site you referenced doesn't have digitized play-by-play prior to 2001, so the 1997 RAPM you referenced is based solely on boxscore data and is useless.

    the site i referenced, HAS digitized play-by-play for it's 1997 RAPM, so it's a real RAPM, and more viable than your boxscore stats... http://apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8536
    .
    Last edited by 3ball; 01-12-2015 at 10:12 AM.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball
    you are missing what Flpiii said - for a RAPM to have any legitimacy, it must be based upon digitized play-by-play... without this, it's useless boxscore stats.

    the site i referenced HAS digitized play-by-play, so therefore, it's vastly better than the site you referenced, which doesn't have play-by-play, and instead is based solely on boxscore stats.
    fplii also stated that it was "better than nothing", and that it had LESS margin of error than both PER and winshares - popular but majorly flawed stats if you attempt to weigh a players impact.

    this site has play-by-play for 2001 and up, and the only site that has its version of RAPM prior to 96 (which again, is STILL better than MOST stats that attempt to measure equal values).

  13. #28
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by mehyaM24

    fplii also stated that it was "better than nothing", and that it had LESS margin of error than both PER and winshares - popular but majorly flawed stats if you attempt to weigh a players impact.
    yeah - he was comparing RAPM to PER and winshares (i don't agree with him btw - i think RAPM hot garbage and less informative than PER and winshares).

    but if we ARE going to look at 1997 RAPM, we can only look at a real version of RAPM that uses play-by-play data - this can be found here.. http://apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8536

    the site you referenced doesn't have play-by-play data for prior to 2001, so the 1997 RAPM you posted is not accurate and based solely on boxscore stats.

    you should redo the OP and replace the fake RAPM data, with the real RAPM data.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Shaq was lazy, unmotivated, missed a ton of games, fought with his coach and was not singularly focused on winning the title. Read between the lines and stuff your RAPM.

    The relationship between Del Harris and Shaquille O'Neal has never been great, and in light of the Lakers recent struggles it turn another turn for the worst.

    The L.A. Daily News is reporting that in the wake of yet another loss last week, this time to Orlando, O'Neal said the Lakers played "like when Del Harris used to be our coach, with no fire and no enthusiasm."

    Harris, now an assistant coach with the Mavericks, was not one to let a dig ride without retaliation, did so Tuesday via the Dallas Morning News.

    "It seems that Shaq apparently is speaking for himself, because guys like Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel and Rick Fox and Derek Fisher and Kobe Bryant, those guys only play one way," Harris said. "They play with passion all the time. If he was holding out on us, then it's amazing we won that many games."

    "(I) never did anything but support Shaq. He's got his rings, and I don't know why he would say this. It's unfair."

    "Shaq missed 30 percent of the games when I had the pleasure of coaching him," Harris added. "And we won 62 percent of those games he missed. At that time, Kobe was 18 or 19 years old and wasn't able to get us 40 (points) a night. If we played without passion, it must have been good coaching, right?"

    Read more at http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...38QYimP8m1h.99

  15. #30
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by mehyaM24
    i'm referring to their careers. players, shaq/kareem, i would draft over hakeem.

    with that said, i have maintained on a number of occasions that 93-95 was hakeem's league.
    MJ > Kareem > Shaq > Hakeem in careers.

    94-95 was Hakeem's league. 1993 was Jordan's. Unless you are biased. Find me one single article at the time who claims that Hakeem bested Jordan in 1993.

    And 1997 was still Jordan's year. It could be Shaq's year but he missed a lot of games (as I explained in another thread). He should have handle his body more properly.

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