Magic was probably outplayed by Stockton in the 1988 WCSF

[sportjames23]

he was also outplayed by isiah thomas in the nba finals


and the pistons should be the 1988 champs. but a bogus call and 2 free throws by kareem was what saved their season

This is where you know this dude is a pure Kobestan and no Laker fan. Can't give the Lakers franchise's greatest player any credit.

And no, Stockton is NOT the GOAT PG. Earvin "Magic" Johnson is.

Stockton played his ass off in that series (probably his best series ever) and it seemed like Utah surprised a lot of people who took them for granted, including the Lakers. It sure did put the Jazz, and Stockton and Malone, on the map (first time I started paying attention to them).

But, we all know how that series ended--with a Lakers victory.

[sportjames23]

What's with the "GOAT pure PG" bullshit?

Magic played that position like nobody could, and has yet to reach. One series where the 2 in question didn't even guard each other isn't going to change that.

You know how muh[COLOR="Black"]f[/COLOR]uckas who probably weren't even alive back then have to revise history.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Been said this.......he's the best PG outside of Magic and Oscar. CP3 def peaked higher but he doesn't have career yet. Stockton and CP3 are the most skilled/complete PGs of alltime......O and D together

Nikkas also forget jerry Sloan was a control freak back then. That series against magic he wasn't the coach...... Sloan got em running pickandroll better with Karl and the other offense but it limited Stockton he wasn't free like someone like Nash who dantoni completely made. To this day I'm not sure who deserved more credit on jazz Stockton or Malone?

[bizil]

What's with the "GOAT pure PG" bullshit?

Magic played that position like nobody could, and has yet to reach. One series where the 2 in question didn't even guard each other isn't going to change that.

I agree! I break it down like this:

THE GOAT PURE PG's with alpha dog scoring ability: 1.Magic 2. Big O 3. Zeke

THE GOAT PURE PG's who weren't alpha dog scorers (I consider Nash a guy who has alpha dog scoring shit): 1. Stock 2. Kidd 3. Cousy

Historically, the number one job description of a PG is to pass first and be like the quarterback. ALL SIX of the guys I named fufilled that to a tee. I consider Magic, Big O, and Zeke PURE PG's. All three were pass first PG's. BUT they also happened to have alpha dog takeover scoring ability along with it. Even though Magic and Big O were VERY VERSATILE and played multiple positions, their PRIMARY position was at PG. Magic played with a natural SG in Scott and a natural SF in Worthy for many years.

Stockton in terms of running a team and dropping dimes is arguably the best ever at it. BUT guys like Magic, Big O, and Zeke still qualify as pure PG's. This new wave of score first kind of PG's like Westbrook, Rose, Curry, Kyrie, and Lillard are changing how we judge PG's. They play like smaller SG's BUT ALSO have the handles and passing ability to play PG. BUT they do it from a score first mentality. When it comes to those kind of guys, I WOULDN'T call them pure PG's.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You know how muh[COLOR="Black"]f[/COLOR]uckas who probably weren't even alive back then have to revise history.

Exactly. People who claim that nonsense have a clear agenda. Could be hate or fandom of another player to knock Magic down a peg - an agenda through and through tho.

I agree! I break it down like this:

THE GOAT PURE PG's with alpha dog scoring ability: 1.Magic 2. Big O 3. Zeke

THE GOAT PURE PG's who weren't alpha dog scorers (I consider Nash a guy who has alpha dog scoring shit): 1. Stock 2. Kidd 3. Cousy

Historically, the number one job description of a PG is to pass first and be like the quarterback. ALL SIX of the guys I named fufilled that to a tee. I consider Magic, Big O, and Zeke PURE PG's. All three were pass first PG's. BUT they also happened to have alpha dog takeover scoring ability along with it. Even though Magic and Big O were VERY VERSATILE and played multiple positions, their PRIMARY position was at PG. Magic played with a natural SG in Scott and a natural SF in Worthy for many years.

Stockton in terms of running a team and dropping dimes is arguably the best ever at it. BUT guys like Magic, Big O, and Zeke still qualify as pure PG's. This new wave of score first kind of PG's like Westbrook, Rose, Curry, Kyrie, and Lillard are changing how we judge PG's. They play like smaller SG's BUT ALSO have the handles and passing ability to play PG. BUT they do it from a score first mentality. When it comes to those kind of guys, I WOULDN'T call them pure PG's.

Pretty solid breakdown. I feel that you're underrating Magic's passing because of his scoring ability (he and Larry are probably the greatest and most spectacular 'highlight passers' ever) - but its cool. The fact he was elite in both areas is why dude's arguably the most efficient offensive player ever, especially in the postseason.

[Pointguard]

That might be the best pg stat line i've ever seen in the modern era. Insane.

Not to diminish Stockton's great feat of 19.3ppg 16.4apg 3.4rpg 4.0spg .505%fg .250%3pt. but the year before in the finals Magic had 26/13/8 on 541% overall FG, 500% from 3 point land, better TS%, exactly half as many turnovers, more clutch plays and FMVP against a HOFer defensive great.

[L.A. Jazz]

i Am a big Stockton fan, he is my PG alltime (just on my Team).

but why was Magic not as good as 1987? was he hurt or tired?

[Pointguard]

Stockton in terms of running a team and dropping dimes is arguably the best ever at it.

I think Stockton ran the Utah scheme as good as it could be ran - Stockton and Malone had maybe the best timing between two players ever. But Deron Williams was on par with CP3 as the best PG's in the league, for at least three years when he ran that Jazz scheme, but wasn't even average once he left that scheme. In what should have been his peak he's averaging 40% less assist without Jerry Sloan's coaching (10 to 6 assist). I'm just saying there is some enhancer going on even without Karl Malone in the Sloan system.

When Magic went out for rest on USA teams (I think Stockton was hurt for USA team) or All Star games, there was a considerable dropoff when Stockton ran those teams. But a case can be made that Stockton hated those environments. I never seen any team Magic had practices with that looked disjointed.

[Sarcastic]

Stockton is underrated.

Dude has a legit argument for top 15 all time.

No he doesn't. He has even no argument for top 25 all time.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

No he doesn't. He has even no argument for top 25 all time.

he is EASILY top 30 no doubt about it and prolly top 20

[Sarcastic]

he is EASILY top 30 no doubt about it and prolly top 20

In no order

Jordan
Wilt
Magic
Russell
Lebron
Kareem
Bird
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe
Shaq
Oscar
West
Baylor
Moses
Dr J
Havlicek
Karl Malone
Barkley
Isiah Thomas
David Robinson
Kevin Durant
George Mikan
Willis Reed
Kevin Garnett
Wes Unseld


That's 26 I named that are better, and there are some I left out, which are debatable.

[bobopenguin]

This is their stats in that series:

Magic Johnson: 38.6mpg 18.7ppg 10.3apg 4.6rpg 1.0spg 3.85topg .500%fg .868%ft

John Stockton: 44.6mpg 19.3ppg 16.4apg 3.4rpg 4.0spg 3.71topg .505%fg .250%3pt .822%ft

i would take off my pant for this guy.. no homo.

[Genaro]

Where can I find this series complete games?

[bizil]

Exactly. People who claim that nonsense have a clear agenda. Could be hate or fandom of another player to knock Magic down a peg - an agenda through and through tho.



Pretty solid breakdown. I feel that you're underrating Magic's passing because of his scoring ability (he and Larry are probably the greatest and most spectacular 'highlight passers' ever) - but its cool. The fact he was elite in both areas is why dude's arguably the most efficient offensive player ever, especially in the postseason.

How was I underrating Magic's passing ability? I think he's the best passer of all time. BUT I can see some arguing Stockton as the best passer of all time. In my breakdown, I was pointing out the fact that Magic WAS a pure PG.

As pure as one could be IN TERMS of what being a PG, leader, and floor general should be. But he was ALSO an alpha dog level scorer on top of it. Stockton was also a pass first PG BUT he wasn't an alpha dog scorer. So how was I underrating Magic's passing ability?

[bizil]

I think Stockton ran the Utah scheme as good as it could be ran - Stockton and Malone had maybe the best timing between two players ever. But Deron Williams was on par with CP3 as the best PG's in the league, for at least three years when he ran that Jazz scheme, but wasn't even average once he left that scheme. In what should have been his peak he's averaging 40% less assist without Jerry Sloan's coaching (10 to 6 assist). I'm just saying there is some enhancer going on even without Karl Malone in the Sloan system.

When Magic went out for rest on USA teams (I think Stockton was hurt for USA team) or All Star games, there was a considerable dropoff when Stockton ran those teams. But a case can be made that Stockton hated those environments. I never seen any team Magic had practices with that looked disjointed.

Well said! I think Magic is the best passer of all time personally. However, I can see some arguing Stockton too because of his success in that Utah system.

But I think the guys like Magic, Nash, Isiah, and Kidd have more WIZARDRY with the rock than Stockton. I think they are better at fooling the defense and being more unpredictable than Stock running a team. As u stated, Stock was in that Utah system. So it was more about "you know what's coming, but u can't stop it."

With somebody like Magic, he was so creative and unpredictable that he would literally fool defenses. Basically, Magic had MORE WAYS to dominate passing the rock than Stock. U hear people talk about scoring skillset. But u also have passing skillset too. Typically the guys who COMBINED the unexpected dimes ALONG with the pinpoint textbook running of plays are harder to figure out.