Bill Russel Is Greater Than Jordan, And Tim Duncan Is Greater Than Shaq

[poeticism707]

Russel is better than greater than Jordan, easily. Averaging 30ppg is easier than averaging 22rpg for the Career of Russel, and 16ppg. On top of that, its not close in regards to Titles.

Tim Duncan is easily greater than Shaq. Here are their career numbers.

Here are Tim Duncan and Shaq's career numbers and accomplishments

Lets take it to the scorecard as it stands right NOW:

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

Here are a few additional points.
TD teammates: at best in a 15 and 5 David Robinson in 2003, Tony Parker (good but not great), Manu (inconsistent) Ginobli, Bruce Bowen (could there be more of an offfensive liability in the starting lineup no less), Malik Rose (!), and Stephen Jackson (sometimes clutch, most other times a saga of turnovers and bad shots, and older version of Robert Horry (clutch but very limited), and old Michael Finley (streaky but classy), and Brent Barry (even more streaky)

Shaq's Teammates: Kobe Bryant (wow, could you have a better "sidekick"?), Dwayne Wade (I guess you can!), Penny Hardaway (good enough to be the Lebron of the mid 90s), Derek Fisher (cluth shooter, his jumper took only 1.3 seconds in .4 of game time to win!), a very Spry Robert Horry (how can you have Kobe, Horry, and Fisher on one team? Too much clutchness), etc..

Advantage? Shaq by far. Kobe and Wade together are better than all TD teammates combined.

Coaching? Well, Phil Jackson has won 9 titles, and if that isn't enough, Pat Riley has won 6 titles. Thats a grand total of 15 titles behind Shaq's coaching staffs; Greg Pop (maybe) for Duncan, maybe 4. However its still not that close. When Phil came to the Lakers, he already had 6 titles. When Pop became coach of the Spurs? He'd won 0 (zero), and hadn't even performed well at the college ranks either. So in essence you have Mike Brown coaching TD as rookie (as far as coaching experience).

So again, to sum it up, Shaq had so much more to work with than TD, and has done so much less. If TD wins his 4th (now up 3-0 in the finals), he will be ahead in every other career statistic, accomplishment comfortably at least; some categories he is so far ahead it is embarrassing (to Shaq), like first team all-defense (7-0).

Now that's settled lets review Bill Russel and Jordan's accomplishments:
Bill Russell:
G FG% FG% Rebs RPG Asts APG Pts PPG
963 .440 .561 21,620 22.5 4,100 4.3 14,522 15.1

Michael Jordan:
G FG% 3PFG%FT%Rebs RPG Asts APG Stls Blks Pts PPG
1,072 .497 .327 .835 6,672 6.2 5,633 5.3 2,514 893 32,292 30.1

So thats it. They both played about the same number of games, so who is greater? MJ averaged 30.1ppg, 6.2 rpg, and 5.3apg., Bill Russel averaged 15.1pppg, an whopping 22.5 rebounds a game, and 4.3apg. Let's look at it this way: Jordan averaged about twice as many points, but Russel averaged almost 4 times as many rebounds, and Jordan +1 in assists. So who has the advantage in numbers? Perhaps it is best to think of it in terms of todays game. Kobe Bryant and (previously AI) are 30ppg scorers, but so what? Neither of them have LED their team to titles. 30ppg is not some mythic number that equates to victory. HOWEVER, 22.5 rpg is ASTOUNDING! Can you imagine a big man today averaging 22.5 rpg?!? That in itself and by itself would change the outcome of most games. 30ppg is probably a bit less than 1/3 of points scored in an NBA game. HOWEVER, 22.5rpg is half the rebounds virtually every team averages for an entire game, that's 50% of all team rpg to one man! For MJ equal such a feat, he would had to have averaged somewhere in the range of 50ppg for his career, obviiosly not happening.

Based on these numbers, the edge would naturally go to Bill Russel, but for the sake of arguing further, we'll call it even between the two. Why? Because the next category the numbers are REALLY skewed.

Titles:

Bill Russel: 11
Jordan: 6

Wow. 11? Well that's it. MJ was overmatched from the Start. He would have to start winning titles in 88, and not take time off from work for personal pursuits.

Again, Bill Russel is greater than Michael Jordan, and its much wider a chasm than the one that lays between Tim Duncan (the greater) and Shaq (the lesser). Here are a few instructional tools so we have better understanding of my criteria:

1. In regards to Russel and Jordan, I couldn't use steals or blocks, because these Stats weren't kept until 1969. This works out well for Jordan, because Russell, who averaged 22.5 rpg, was beyond compare in rebounding and defensive positioning, meaning an even more lopsided win for Russell statistically.

2. I don't want to hear about the competition being poor then. Russell consistently went against AND guarded all game long Wilt Chamberlain. WILT CHAMBERLAIN!!! There is a huge difference between playing against someone on another team, and GUARDING someone all night long. In essence, he was Bruce Bowen to Wilt, only he averaged 22.5 rpg and 15.1ppg (and obviously did not shut down Wilt.)

3. Listing Jordan's (or Shaq's) career scoring games WON'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Jordan 's career high was 69 points. Obviously a stellar performance. But Bill Russel? Bill Russel's career high was 50rpgs. 50! That is more than 100% of the teams rpg output He also got 49rpgs on a few occasions. Bill Russell's 50rpg is more impressive than even Wilts 100 point game (easily).

4. Anyone who thinks Bill Russel was not the man on the Celtics doesn't know basketball. NO ONE AND I MEAN NO ONE AVERAGES THOSE NUMBERS AND NOT BE "THE MAN."

5. I don't want to hear about Russel having the greatest team and not being fair. And? The Bulls had Jordan, at the time the best in the league and Pippen, the best all around player in the league. Most nights you could hardly tell who was who. Nobody cared that the Lakers had Shaq and Kobe, two superstars. Or that Bird had Mchale and Parish and others. Don't get me started on the Showtime Lakers!

In closing, you indeed heard me correctly. Bill Russel is the GOAT and Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq.

[hippos]

Russel is better than greater than Jordan, easily. Averaging 30ppg is easier than averaging 22rpg for the Career of Russel, and 16ppg. On top of that, its not close in regards to Titles.

Tim Duncan is easily greater than Shaq. Here are their career numbers.

Here are Tim Duncan and Shaq's career numbers and accomplishments

Lets take it to the scorecard as it stands right NOW:

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

Here are a few additional points.
TD teammates: at best in a 15 and 5 David Robinson in 2003, Tony Parker (good but not great), Manu (inconsistent) Ginobli, Bruce Bowen (could there be more of an offfensive liability in the starting lineup no less), Malik Rose (!), and Stephen Jackson (sometimes clutch, most other times a saga of turnovers and bad shots, and older version of Robert Horry (clutch but very limited), and old Michael Finley (streaky but classy), and Brent Barry (even more streaky)

Shaq's Teammates: Kobe Bryant (wow, could you have a better "sidekick"?), Dwayne Wade (I guess you can!), Penny Hardaway (good enough to be the Lebron of the mid 90s), Derek Fisher (cluth shooter, his jumper took only 1.3 seconds in .4 of game time to win!), a very Spry Robert Horry (how can you have Kobe, Horry, and Fisher on one team? Too much clutchness), etc..

Advantage? Shaq by far. Kobe and Wade together are better than all TD teammates combined.

Coaching? Well, Phil Jackson has won 9 titles, and if that isn't enough, Pat Riley has won 6 titles. Thats a grand total of 15 titles behind Shaq's coaching staffs; Greg Pop (maybe) for Duncan, maybe 4. However its still not that close. When Phil came to the Lakers, he already had 6 titles. When Pop became coach of the Spurs? He'd won 0 (zero), and hadn't even performed well at the college ranks either. So in essence you have Mike Brown coaching TD as rookie (as far as coaching experience).

So again, to sum it up, Shaq had so much more to work with than TD, and has done so much less. If TD wins his 4th (now up 3-0 in the finals), he will be ahead in every other career statistic, accomplishment comfortably at least; some categories he is so far ahead it is embarrassing (to Shaq), like first team all-defense (7-0).

Now that's settled lets review Bill Russel and Jordan's accomplishments:
Bill Russell:
G FG% FG% Rebs RPG Asts APG Pts PPG
963 .440 .561 21,620 22.5 4,100 4.3 14,522 15.1

Michael Jordan:
G FG% 3PFG%FT%Rebs RPG Asts APG Stls Blks Pts PPG
1,072 .497 .327 .835 6,672 6.2 5,633 5.3 2,514 893 32,292 30.1

So thats it. They both played about the same number of games, so who is greater? MJ averaged 30.1ppg, 6.2 rpg, and 5.3apg., Bill Russel averaged 15.1pppg, an whopping 22.5 rebounds a game, and 4.3apg. Let's look at it this way: Jordan averaged about twice as many points, but Russel averaged almost 4 times as many rebounds, and Jordan +1 in assists. So who has the advantage in numbers? Perhaps it is best to think of it in terms of todays game. Kobe Bryant and (previously AI) are 30ppg scorers, but so what? Neither of them have LED their team to titles. 30ppg is not some mythic number that equates to victory. HOWEVER, 22.5 rpg is ASTOUNDING! Can you imagine a big man today averaging 22.5 rpg?!? That in itself and by itself would change the outcome of most games. 30ppg is probably a bit less than 1/3 of points scored in an NBA game. HOWEVER, 22.5rpg is half the rebounds virtually every team averages for an entire game, that's 50% of all team rpg to one man! For MJ equal such a feat, he would had to have averaged somewhere in the range of 50ppg for his career, obviiosly not happening.

Based on these numbers, the edge would naturally go to Bill Russel, but for the sake of arguing further, we'll call it even between the two. Why? Because the next category the numbers are REALLY skewed.

Titles:

Bill Russel: 11
Jordan: 6

Wow. 11? Well that's it. MJ was overmatched from the Start. He would have to start winning titles in 88, and not take time off from work for personal pursuits.

Again, Bill Russel is greater than Michael Jordan, and its much wider a chasm than the one that lays between Tim Duncan (the greater) and Shaq (the lesser). Here are a few instructional tools so we have better understanding of my criteria:

1. In regards to Russel and Jordan, I couldn't use steals or blocks, because these Stats weren't kept until 1969. This works out well for Jordan, because Russell, who averaged 22.5 rpg, was beyond compare in rebounding and defensive positioning, meaning an even more lopsided win for Russell statistically.

2. I don't want to hear about the competition being poor then. Russell consistently went against AND guarded all game long Wilt Chamberlain. WILT CHAMBERLAIN!!! There is a huge difference between playing against someone on another team, and GUARDING someone all night long. In essence, he was Bruce Bowen to Wilt, only he averaged 22.5 rpg and 15.1ppg (and obviously did not shut down Wilt.)

3. Listing Jordan's (or Shaq's) career scoring games WON'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Jordan 's career high was 69 points. Obviously a stellar performance. But Bill Russel? Bill Russel's career high was 50rpgs. 50! That is more than 100% of the teams rpg output He also got 49rpgs on a few occasions. Bill Russell's 50rpg is more impressive than even Wilts 100 point game (easily).

4. Anyone who thinks Bill Russel was not the man on the Celtics doesn't know basketball. NO ONE AND I MEAN NO ONE AVERAGES THOSE NUMBERS AND NOT BE "THE MAN."

5. I don't want to hear about Russel having the greatest team and not being fair. And? The Bulls had Jordan, at the time the best in the league and Pippen, the best all around player in the league. Most nights you could hardly tell who was who. Nobody cared that the Lakers had Shaq and Kobe, two superstars. Or that Bird had Mchale and Parish and others. Don't get me started on the Showtime Lakers!

In closing, you indeed heard me correctly. Bill Russel is the GOAT and Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq.

You already posted this, silly.

[G-train]

get a life

[poeticism707]

You already posted this, silly.

[poeticism707]

get a life

Don't like the truth unless ESPN tells you, huh? (which they never do)

[poeticism707]

[G-train]

I'm a big russell fan, hence http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44995

your an idiot cos you have already debated shaq v duncan here and got owned
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40820

the facts are russell and jordan cant be compared fool

Chamberlain, Russell and even pettit and baylor had massive rebounding numbers at the time


http://www.nba.com/statistics/encyc/...t=all&x=25&y=8

it was a different game

[G-train]

friggin jerry west averaged 9 a game at 6'2

you can compared russells rebounding to Jordan elite offensive and defensive skill, in which he had no weakness

[poeticism707]

I'm a big russell fan, hence http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44995

your an idiot cos you have already debated shaq v duncan here and got owned
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40820

the facts are russell and jordan cant be compared fool

Chamberlain, Russell and even pettit and baylor had massive rebounding numbers at the time


http://www.nba.com/statistics/encyc/...t=all&x=25&y=8

it was a different game

It wasn't a "different game." It was and still is basketball. Russels feats far and away outshine MJs. Also, the Tim Duncan thread? Owned? Please. If you are able to imitate phonetical sounds and understand their meaning (also known as "reading comprehension") actually go back to the thread and "read." The truth won't set you free though, because you won't let it.

[Sun Devil]

Bill Russel Is Greater Than Jordan.

Also...

Magic > Jordan

Kareem > Jordan

Wilt > Jordan

and maybe even...

Bird > Jordan

So what's your point??!?!?!?!??!

[poeticism707]

friggin jerry west averaged 9 a game at 6'2

you can compared russells rebounding to Jordan elite offensive and defensive skill, in which he had no weakness

The fact that you just typed Jordan "had no weakness" clearly illustrates you are nothing more than a wide eyed casual fan. "Jordan had entertaining Nike Commercials, so he's the best ever! He had no weakness!" Don't bother posting such thoughtless rhetoric on this thread.

[G-train]

The only people that will respond to this thread are fools, or people laughing and mocking at the fools. i fall in the second category

[poeticism707]

Also...

Magic > Jordan

Kareem > Jordan

Wilt > Jordan

and maybe even...

Bird > Jordan

So what's your point??!?!?!?!??!

I made it very clear, clearer than the hollow space between your ears: Bill Russel is the GOAT!

[G-train]

Jordan was the complete player - what area would you consider a weakness? He is known as the GOAT for a reason.

He mastered the offensive game... what couldnt he do? he didnt shoot many threes but it wasnt a weakness. tell me his offensive weakness you dumbf*ck

then tell what he couldnt do at his postion defensively

I tell you, this board can be moronic at times

[poeticism707]

Jordan was the complete player - what area would you consider a weakness? He is known as the GOAT for a reason.

He mastered the offensive game... what couldnt he do? he didnt shoot many threes but it wasnt a weakness. tell me his offensive weakness you dumbf*ck

then tell what he couldnt do at his postion defensively

I tell you, this board can be moronic at times

Did he average 22.5rpg for his career? Compared to Russell, that is a weakness...