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  1. #151
    7-time NBA All-Star
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    Default Re: Amazing Larry Bird stat note

    Who cares if he statistically outplayed Russell in the 1969 finals? Russell did his job. He completely shut down Wilt offensively for less than 12 ppg, hell Russell was only about 2.5 ppg off of matching his scoring. It's remarkable because Russell averaged something like 9-10 ppg that season while Wilt averaged 20+. He lost as the favorite while playing WELL below his standard.

    And what hall of fame competition did he face in the 1972 finals? he faced a past his prime Jerry Lucas who was only 6'8", 230. Remember, Reed was injured.

    Yes and Wilt, Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Luke Jackson and Chet Walker won that '67 ring.

    And Wilt, Jerry West, Gail Goodrich, Jim McMillan and Happy Happy Hairston won that 1972 ring. Goodrich and West were each 26 ppg scorers, while West averaged about 10 apg, both shot an excellent 49 and 48%, respectively. Hairston was also a 19 ppg scorer on 48% shooting.

    Hall of famers don't grow on trees like they did back then. Remember, Shaq carried the Lakers in the 2000 finals. He completely destroyed an all-star that season, Dale Davis in the finals despite all of the double/triple teams.

    Shaq opened up by carrying Los Angeles with 43/19/4/3 on 21/31 shooting, Kobe only had 14/3/5 on 6/13 shooting. Shaq had twelve 4th quarter points, and 2 assists with gorgeous passes to cutters. Shaq scored or assisted on every basket for the first 9 minutes of the quarter except for 2 Rick Fox jumpers. It was a 6 point game when the quarter started and it was a 17 point game after Shaq's 43rd point. John Salley came in for Shaq with the game officially a blowout, and Indiana's star, Reggie Miller sat down shortly after.

    In game 2, Shaq had 40/24/4/3 to carry the Lakers again after Kobe went down after 9 minutes with just 3 points scorer. Now onto the 4th quarter. He was 4 for 4 from the field and 9 for 16 from the line(good considering he was 9 for 23 entering the quarter). He also had 2 "hockey assists" that led to 's by Rice and Fisher, respectively. Once again showing the impact of the double/triple teams he draws and passing skills. A better example came with just under a minute to go when Shaq caught the ball and was swarmed, but made a gorgeous pass to Robert Horry for a layup.

    Game 4 was the only time Kobe made a big contribution in the series. He had 28 points on 14/27 shooting and of course had the clutch OT performance after Shaq fouled out. Regardless, Shaq had 36/21 before that.

    In game 6, Shaq 42/12/4 to closeout the series while Kobe had 26 points on 8 for 27 shooting. Shaq finished the series with averages of 38/17/3 on 61% shooting, and those weren't inflated numbers from the 60s, those were at a slow pace. Kobe finished the series averaging under 16 ppg and about 4 rpg and apg a piece. He shot under 37% and averaged more shot attempts than points while missing about 2 games.

    Wilt never had a finals series CLOSE to Shaq's 3peat. You have the excuse that he faced Thurmond in 1967, fine, Shaq also faced one of the best defensive players of all time in the 2001 finals. He still averaged 33/16/5/3 on 57% shooting including a 44/20/5 game and a 28/20/9/8 game.

    Yeah, the Magic were favored in 1995, but look at how Shaq's teammates performed. You have even acknowledged that you thought a 3rd year Shaq played prime Hakeem Olajuwon about even(even though I'd give Dream the slight edge for clutch play). In the series, Dream's teammates outplayed Shaq's and they wouldn't have been swept if not for Nick Anderson choking away a sure win.

    In 2004? They wouldn't have been in position to get swept if Shaq's teammates showed up and Kobe didn't embarrass himself by averaging as many shot attempts as points and shooting 38%. Shaq averaged 27/11 on 63% shooting and got NO help, if you'd like to push the issue further and I'll show what his teammates did.

    As far as Shaq's teams vs superior teams? The 2002 Kings were better than the Lakers on paper, so were the 2006 Mavs vs the Heat and arguably the 2006 Pistons had won 12 more games. And what about Jordan's Bulls in 1995?

    Shaq faced swarming defenses his whole career..

    I'd rather play against thin 6'9"/6'10" centers than strong, physical seven footers. I wonder how many of the so called hall of famers from Wilt's day would be hall of famers without the inflated stats.

    No, you have this ridiculous idea that Wilt WOULD have averaged 30+ shots per game today. You clearly don't understand how the game is played today.

    Shaq was guarded primarily by Dale Davis not Rik Smits in the 2000 finals who had A LOT of help with double/triple teams. But, you know, you'd have to actually watch the games to know this.

    Considering the amount of shot attempts and minutes Wilt averaged in 1964, those stats don't really impress me.

    Yes and Shaq's teammates failed him numerous times as well, but he still ended up with 4 rings, twice as many as Wilt.

    Look at Kareem's teammates for most of the 70's and it's funny you call Kareem a career loser because Wilt was considered one in his career. He didn't win his second championship until his 12th season.

    Right, Kareem rode Magic's coat-tails. Kareem was the best player on the 1980 Lakers by far, the 1982 Lakers as well and still the finals MVP and leading scorer on the 1985 Lakers.

    Bird was a better scorer than Magic, get over it. Bird's career high 30 ppg season was more efficient than Magic's career high 24 ppg season.

    Bird was the best player in 3 finals he played in, 1981, 1984 and 1986.

    Magic didn't even have an argument for being better than Bird until the 1986-1987 season.

    You're getting your seasons mixed up. Kobe averaged 26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg and 4.6 apg on 43.4% shooting in the 2002 playoffs. And look up who came up the biggest in the 2002 conference finals vs Sacramento and finals, Shaq

    The other stats you posted were from 2001 when Shaq again topped Kobe with 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg and 2.4 bpg on 56% shooting.

    Yes, Shaq was the MVP of those championship teams, here are some stats for you since you love stats so much.

    Shaq

    1999-2000
    Regular Season- 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.0 bpg, 57.4 FG%
    Playoffs- 30.7 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 56.6 FG%
    Finals- 38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg, 61.1 FG%

    2000-2001
    Regular Season- 28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.8 bpg, 57.2 FG%
    Playoffs- 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.5 bpg 55.5 FG%
    Finals- 33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 bpg, 57.3 FG%

    2001-2002
    Regular Season- 27.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, 57.9 FG%
    Playoffs- 28.5 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.5 bpg, 52.9 FG%
    Finals- 36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 59.5 FG%

    3 seasons combined
    Regular Season- 28.6 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.6 bpg, 57.5 FG%
    Playoffs- 29.9 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.4 bpg, 55.2 FG%
    Finals- 35.9 ppg, 15.2 rpg, 3.5 apg, 3.2 bpg, 59.5 FG%

    Kobe

    1999-2000
    Regular Season- 22.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.6 spg 46.8 FG%
    Playoffs- 21.1 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.5 spg, 44.2 FG%
    Finals- 15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.0 spg, 36.7 FG%

    2000-2001
    Regular Season- 28.5 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.7 spg, 46.4 FG%
    Playoffs- 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 46.9 FG%
    Finals- 24.6 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 1.4 spg, 41.5 FG%

    2001-2002
    Regular Season- 25.2 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.5 spg, 46.9 FG%
    Playoffs- 26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.4 spg, 43.2 FG%
    Finals- 26.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.3 apg, 1.5 spg, 51.4 FG%

    3 seasons combined
    Regular Season- 25.4 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 5.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 46.7 FG%
    Playoffs- 25.3 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.5 spg, 44.7 FG%
    Finals- 24.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 5.1 apg, 1.3 spg, 42.5 FG%

    Shaq without Kobe during the 3peat was 25-6 and Kobe without Shaq? Just 13-12. Shaq was CLEARLY the best player and MVP of those teams.

    I'm done arguing Shaq and Kareem vs Wilt here and Shaq vs Kobe because this is a Bird thread and I see that you have no valid points to make.

  2. #152
    OptimusPrime1
    Fan in the Stands (unregistered)

    Default Re: Amazing Larry Bird stat note

    How the hell did Russell, Kobe, Wilt, Shaq and Kareem get into this conversation?

  3. #153
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    Default Re: Amazing Larry Bird stat note

    It's easy to get nostalgic looking back at the highlights. I think sometimes the older vets are put on a higher pedestal. I mean, Bird is know for being a great shooter but Kobe has a higher 3 pt FG% in the playoffs, 2nd most 30 point games in the playoffs, and more rings.

    Honestly, I dunno if Bird is even Top 10

  4. #154
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    Default Re: Amazing Larry Bird stat note

    Quote Originally Posted by chopchop20
    It's easy to get nostalgic looking back at the highlights. I think sometimes the older vets are put on a higher pedestal. I mean, Bird is know for being a great shooter but Kobe has a higher 3 pt FG% in the playoffs, 2nd most 30 point games in the playoffs, and more rings.

    Honestly, I dunno if Bird is even Top 10
    I don't really rank players, but no one here hasn't stated that Bird was one of the greatest ball players ever.

    I do agree with the'nostalgia' factor & how people look back on past greats & forget their flaws/ bad or average games.

    Bird was not infallible.

    Let my parents/grandparents tell it

    They don't make Cars like they did in the 'good old days' nor;

    music( I agree to an extent)
    movies
    furniture
    men
    women
    clothes

    etc....

    The past is just that. Let it go.

  5. #155
    NBA rookie of the year
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    Default Re: Amazing Larry Bird stat note

    Quote Originally Posted by chopchop20
    It's easy to get nostalgic looking back at the highlights. I think sometimes the older vets are put on a higher pedestal. I mean, Bird is know for being a great shooter but Kobe has a higher 3 pt FG% in the playoffs, 2nd most 30 point games in the playoffs, and more rings.

    Honestly, I dunno if Bird is even Top 10

  6. #156
    Local High School Star Alhazred's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amazing Larry Bird stat note

    Quote Originally Posted by Niquesports
    malone had little help where as Bird had much help its not like they were defending each other. malone had no help on the Birds where as Bird did much help which opened things up.
    True, the Rockets didn't have the same amount of talent as Boston, but Bird held his own on the boards quite well regardless.

    This is more Larry Legend junk. If the SF were killing Bird which most of them were Nique,Worthy,King,M Johnson ect.. imagine what the PG and SG would have done the guys Magic was defending. Birds D was more Hype that truth.
    Not sure if I'd go that far as saying it was all hype, but I do admit that I forgot to factor in that Magic was guarding smaller and far quicker opponents. I guess I may have overrated Bird's defense a bit.

    As far as scoring goes ITs kind of like saying Moses was a better rebounder than Isiah Magic team didnt depend on him as much to scorer his skill was keeping everyone involved in the offense Bird set out to score and demanded that he take the important shots . WHen needed Magic found ways to score driving the lane later in his career a good 3pt shot and his sky hook you know the one over the whole Boston team in the finals.Bird was a great passer but Magic was a better floor general who else could have made Byron Scott the teams leading scorer with Worthy and Kareem on that team?
    Magic was a terrific scorer, no doubt about it, but Bird was simply a better shooter and scorer overall. Even when Magic started taking threes later in his career, he still wasn't as good as Larry when it came to shooting from long range.

    You have your right Red did that also and West took Magic and we see the results Magic 5 rings Bird 3 not sure what Math you use but Magic won this one.
    When determining who's better you need to take into consideration more than just who has more rings. You might as well argue that Scottie Pippen is better than Bird and Lebron, then, seeing as how he has twice as many rings as them combined.

    That all being said, I understand if you feel Magic was the better player. I really don't think there's much of a gap between the two of them, to be honest.

  7. #157
    phal5 catch24's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amazing Larry Bird stat note

    Quote Originally Posted by chopchop20
    It's easy to get nostalgic looking back at the highlights. I think sometimes the older vets are put on a higher pedestal. I mean, Bird is know for being a great shooter but Kobe has a higher 3 pt FG% in the playoffs, 2nd most 30 point games in the playoffs, and more rings.

    Honestly, I dunno if Bird is even Top 10
    Uh, LOL?

  8. #158
    Local High School Star Alhazred's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amazing Larry Bird stat note

    Quote Originally Posted by jlauber
    Some more fascinating numbers regarding the Kobe-Bird debate...

    How much more efficient was Bird in the post-season than Kobe? First of all, Kobe has OUTSHOT Bird from the 3PT line, with a post-season career average of .337 compared to Bird's .321. But for those that feel that Bird was a much more efficient FG% shooter based on his post-season career edge of .472 to Kobe's .450...

    Subtract Kobe's and Bird's post-season 3pt shooting, and Bird's edge drops down to .485 to .476. Not nearly as dramatic as PERCEIVED.
    Weren't you making a big deal about the difference between eras when people were pointing out that Bird had a higher field goal precentage than Kobe? You should have also mentioned that the average team in Kobe's era shot far more three pointers than your typical 80s team.

    1986 Celtics- 393 three point attempts over the regular season

    2009 Lakers- 1516 three point attempts

    Also, when Bird actually took at least three point attempts a game during the regular season, his percentage was generally close to 40%.

    Continuing...Bird came into the NBA as an immediate star at age of 23. Kobe entered the league right out of high school, at age 18, and did not play significant minutes until he was 20. AND, from age 22 to current, Kobe's post-season scoring average is 29.2 ppg., and his FG% climbs to about .457. Throw out 3 P shooting and it is at .473.

    His stat line, from age 22 to current, or 9 seasons, is 29.2 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 5.2 apg, on .457 shooting and .473 without 3 pt shooting. And he shot .341 from the 3pt line.

    Bird's in 12 seasons, ... 23.8 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 6.5 apg, on .472 shooting, or .485without the 3pt line. And he shot .321 from the 3pt line.
    Well, that's hardly a fair comparison. You're comparing Kobe's prime to Bird's entire career, including the seasons where he was facing numerous injuries. Plus, Kobe had 4 seasons of NBA experience by the age of 22, whereas Bird had some college experience at that point but that's hardly the same thing.

    As for the '86 Finals. Bird put up a 24-10-10 Finals on .482 shooting. His teammate, Kevin McHale put up a 26-9-2 Finals on .572 shooting. And, on the other side, Olajuwon put up a 25-12-2 3 bpg Finals on .479 shooting. IF Bird was the best player in that series, it was clearly not by much.
    How was Bird not better? He scored nearly the same amount of points as McHale and Olajuwon while also grabbing nearly as many rebounds and had several more assists than either of them.

    Regarding my 22 series list...it was in chronological order, and it was just off of the top of my head. But, for those that scoffed at Baylor's 61-62 Finals, he had a 61-22 game in game five. I can't recall what his totals were for the Finals, but for his two playoff series, including the Finals, he averaged 38.6 ppg, 17.7 rpg, and 3.6 apg. True, he only shot .439...BUT, the LEAGUE AVERAGE was .426.
    As Shaqattack noted earlier, the average team was scoring 118 points per game. It was a terrific performance judging from what little footage I've seen of it, but I can't rank it over Bird's considering the Lakers didn't even win it all.

    As for Wilt's 69-70 Finals... the ONLY 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 shooting, and 4.0 apg (and probably well over 5 bpg)...all accomplished just four months after majr knee surgery. In a must-win game six, he put up a 45-27 game (on 20-27 shooting.) And, of course in the famous "Reed game", Wilt was criticized for "only" having a 21-24 game on 10-16 shooting.
    Those are some nice statistics, but Wilt's 45 point game came when Reed didn't even play. Other than Game 6, Wilt never scored more than 22 points. Also, Wilt didn't come close to matching his previous performance the next game when Reed was out and New York cruised to an easy victory. Why didn't Wilt simply dominate them like he did just the game before when the Knick's starting center was hobbled by injuries? LA was down by as many as 25 points going into the fourth quarter, yet he never tried to take over. Why?

    Of course Wade's 05-06 has been considered one of the greatest ever... 34.7 ppg, on .468 shooting, with 7.8 rpg, and 3.6 apg.
    It certainly is one of the greatest performances ever, but I'd still go with Bird's 86 performance. He had far more assists and rebounds than Wade and shot a slightly higher percentage, although Wade did outscore him. It's close.

  9. #159
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    Default Re: Amazing Larry Bird stat note

    The racism in this thread is off the charts. Bird is still the GOAT SF until Lebron surpasses him.

    Kobe isn't better than Bird or Lebron.

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