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  1. #31
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #14. Scottie Pippen vs Elgin Baylor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miller for 3
    Does anyone actually have a reason for voting for Baylor other than volume stats and accolades? He seems like a relativley low impact player. As fatal stated, the Lakers records with Baylor b4 West weren't that good. As soon as Elgin retired the Lakers went on a 33 game winning streak and eventually won the title. They made the finals in 65 despite missing Elgin missing the playoffs. Watching him play he had very poor shot selection even for that era. I can't comment on his defense, but he was a great rebounder and underrated passer, but I don't think he was more impactful than Pippen
    Yet, the Lakers make the Finals in his rookie year while Elgin was leading them against the Celtics dynasty. And while he was in his prime up to 65, his LA team went really far in the post season and came to a 10 open missed footer from Salvy to a title.

    And past 65, he wasn't the same. By 70, he couldn't jump, move really well and that hurt him, because he couldn't explode by his opponents, get up high etc.

  2. #32
    Decent college freshman Dbrog's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #14. Scottie Pippen vs Elgin Baylor.

    Although Baylor's points may be quite skewed due to the insane amount of shots he took, he still is one of (if not the best) rebounding SF ever. Like some other posters have mentioned, I can't really criticize him for losing to Russell's Celtic teams. It's not like he was favored to win those series. Baylor showed the ability to lead underdogs into the playoffs and actually win series'. He had a RIDICULOUSLY good touch around the basket. If you actually go watch him, he throws up what look to be random-as-$hit shots and they usually fall. Truly a number 1 guy and there was debate as to whether West or Elgin was the more valuable player on most of those Laker squads.

    I really can't say anything like this for Pippen. Not a knock against him, but he excelled at taking stacked teams far into the playoffs...as the second option to the disputable GOAT. No question in my mind that Baylor was the stronger of the two players which makes me wonder why people in this thread think Pip would own Baylor one-on-one.

    Anyway, it would truly be a travesty if Pip won against Elgin Baylor. Reasons shouldn't even really be needed for this matchup.

    Sidenote: does this mean Dirk is ahead of Baylor or is he not even on this list?

  3. #33
    NBA Superstar 97 bulls's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #14. Scottie Pippen vs Elgin Baylor.

    Its obvious that people are to base their votes on statistics. Pippen and Baylor played in totally different eras statistically. Bayler was arguably the best small forward of the 60s. And pippen was arguably the best small forward of the 90s.

    Pippen flatout just did more in the nba.

  4. #34
    Scott Hastings Fan G.O.A.T's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #14. Scottie Pippen vs Elgin Baylor.

    Quote Originally Posted by 97 bulls
    Its obvious that people are to base their votes on statistics. Pippen and Baylor played in totally different eras statistically. Bayler was arguably the best small forward of the 60s. And pippen was arguably the best small forward of the 90s.

    Pippen flatout just did more in the nba.
    Pippen certainly did not do more in the NBA.

    Baylor did the following...

    Saved a franchise from folding and got them sold and moved to the West Coast because he and his style of play was so marketable.
    Took a team to the Finals in his rookie year
    Played in seven NBA Finals (Lost to the Russell Celtics in six of them)
    Became the first player ever to score 70 points in a game
    Became the first player ever to score 60 points in a Finals game
    Made 10 all-NBA first teams
    Finished in the top five in Scoring, rebounding and assists in the same season (1962-63)
    Finished in the top five of the MVP vote seven times
    Averaged 36-15-4 on 46% shooting during his playoff prime
    Was the first in game high-flyer setting the tone for the vast majority of modern wing/perimeter star.

    There is an argument that Pippen is a better player than Baylor, especially when you place a value on statistics (in context). However Elgin Baylor is unquestionably the greater and more accomplished player.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #14. Scottie Pippen vs Elgin Baylor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
    Elgin Baylor is a top 15 player of alltime, so he is my vote
    since when?

  6. #36
    College superstar JMT's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #14. Scottie Pippen vs Elgin Baylor.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilsAssassin
    since when?
    Since the day he walked on a basketball court. You're welcome.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #14. Scottie Pippen vs Elgin Baylor.

    Quote Originally Posted by 97 bulls
    Its obvious that people are to base their votes on statistics. Pippen and Baylor played in totally different eras statistically. Bayler was arguably the best small forward of the 60s. And pippen was arguably the best small forward of the 90s.

    Pippen flatout just did more in the nba.
    This is not even close... no need to point out stats here.

  8. #38
    NBA Superstar 97 bulls's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #14. Scottie Pippen vs Elgin Baylor.

    Quote Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
    Pippen certainly did not do more in the NBA.

    Baylor did the following...

    Saved a franchise from folding and got them sold and moved to the West Coast because he and his style of play was so marketable.
    Took a team to the Finals in his rookie year
    Played in seven NBA Finals (Lost to the Russell Celtics in six of them)
    Became the first player ever to score 70 points in a game
    Became the first player ever to score 60 points in a Finals game
    Made 10 all-NBA first teams
    Finished in the top five in Scoring, rebounding and assists in the same season (1962-63)
    Finished in the top five of the MVP vote seven times
    Averaged 36-15-4 on 46% shooting during his playoff prime
    Was the first in game high-flyer setting the tone for the vast majority of modern wing/perimeter star.

    There is an argument that Pippen is a better player than Baylor, especially when you place a value on statistics (in context). However Elgin Baylor is unquestionably the greater and more accomplished player.
    Obviously, pippen won't be able to match baylors statistical accomplishments. As is the case with most of the players that played in pippens era vs baylors.

    But pippen is regarded as the greatest perimeter defender ever
    Won 6 nba championships
    Won 2 olympic gold medals
    Made all nba defense 10 times
    Made all nba 7 times
    One of only three players in the history of the nba to lead their team in every major offensive and defensive category in a season.
    Is the only player to win an olympic gold medal and nba championship in the same season.
    Is 4th all-time in stls
    And I believe he's the all-time leader in playoff games played

    A lot of the points you make in baylors favor are more a product of the league he played in. I don't feel he'd finish that high in the mvp race that many times if he were to play in this era or the 90s because there were more players. And obviously his statistics would be lower.
    Last edited by 97 bulls; 11-11-2011 at 07:43 PM.

  9. #39
    NBA Superstar 97 bulls's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #14. Scottie Pippen vs Elgin Baylor.

    Quote Originally Posted by PTB Fan
    This is not even close... no need to point out stats here.
    Really? You feel baylor is more accomplished and its not even close?

  10. #40
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #14. Scottie Pippen vs Elgin Baylor.

    Quote Originally Posted by 97 bulls
    Really? You feel baylor is more accomplished and its not even close?
    Maybe but he's flat out better player as well. This isn't a debate for me. Scottie was really great, but Elgin was on another level.

  11. #41
    Scott Hastings Fan G.O.A.T's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #14. Scottie Pippen vs Elgin Baylor.

    Quote Originally Posted by 97 bulls
    A lot of the points you make in baylors favor are more a product of the league he played in. I don't feel he'd finish that high in the mvp race that many times if he were to play in this era or the 90s because there were more players. And obviously his statistics would be lower.
    No offense, but what you feel doesn't matter at all. Being a top five player is not about what era you are in. Top is top five in any era. I didn't use any stats except the playoff ones from his peak which are far greater than anyone in his era produced and that was my point.

    All of Pippen's accomplishments you listed are something Baylor did at a higher level or to a greater extent or were not possible for Baylor to do.

    The stats favor Pippen actually, once you apply context and look at the whole picture, Baylor was just greater. At one point Baylor was widely considered the greatest forward ever, Pippen has never been in that conversation.

  12. #42
    NBA Superstar 97 bulls's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #14. Scottie Pippen vs Elgin Baylor.

    Quote Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
    No offense, but what you feel doesn't matter at all. Being a top five player is not about what era you are in. Top is top five in any era. I didn't use any stats except the playoff ones from his peak which are far greater than anyone in his era produced and that was my point.

    All of Pippen's accomplishments you listed are something Baylor did at a higher level or to a greater extent or were not possible for Baylor to do.

    The stats favor Pippen actually, once you apply context and look at the whole picture, Baylor was just greater. At one point Baylor was widely considered the greatest forward ever, Pippen has never been in that conversation.
    Yeah going back from the 60s and 50s. He was probably considered the greatest ever. Pippen would've been too. Had he played in such a young league. But baylors not considered that now.

    And going by your own assertion, pippens stats are better (when context is applied), he's the better defender, he's won more, he's just as athletic. But baylor is better?

  13. #43
    Local High School Star MasterDurant24's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #14. Scottie Pippen vs Elgin Baylor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miller for 3
    Does anyone actually have a reason for voting for Baylor other than volume stats and accolades? He seems like a relativley low impact player. As fatal stated, the Lakers records with Baylor b4 West weren't that good. As soon as Elgin retired the Lakers went on a 33 game winning streak and eventually won the title. They made the finals in 65 despite missing Elgin missing the playoffs. Watching him play he had very poor shot selection even for that era. I can't comment on his defense, but he was a great rebounder and underrated passer, but I don't think he was more impactful than Pippen
    Baylor was 37 when the Lakers made that run, he had already been hobbling around for years. The Lakers also didn't really have any challengers in the West during the 60's, all they had to do was win one round to get to the Finals anyway. That 65 season was also West's great playoff run when he averaged 40 points.

  14. #44
    Serious playground baller RobertdeMeijer's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #14. Scottie Pippen vs Elgin Baylor.

    Quote Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
    Pippen certainly did not do more in the NBA.

    Baylor did the following...

    Saved a franchise from folding and got them sold and moved to the West Coast because he and his style of play was so marketable.
    But where would Chicago be without Pippen boosting Jordan and the Bulls?

    Took a team to the Finals in his rookie year
    That indeed cannot be said about Pippen
    Played in seven NBA Finals (Lost to the Russell Celtics in six of them)
    Pippen won six NBA Finals
    Became the first player ever to score 70 points in a game
    Became the first player ever to score 60 points in a Finals game
    Fair enough, although I think scoring alot of points is overrated
    Made 10 all-NBA first teams
    Pippen made his fair share of all-nba teams.
    Finished in the top five in Scoring, rebounding and assists in the same season (1962-63)
    Aye, Baylor had a higher statistical peak: 28.2 PER and 14.8 WS, compared to Pippen's 22ish PER and 13.1 WS. But Pippen had a better prime, according to stats
    Finished in the top five of the MVP vote seven times
    Pippen made it three times. Would it have been more if he didn't play alongside Jordan?
    Averaged 36-15-4 on 46% shooting during his playoff prime
    Indeed, Baylor had a beastly playoff prime. Still, Pippen had a better playoff carreer in the long run
    Was the first in game high-flyer setting the tone for the vast majority of modern wing/perimeter star.
    So, three things, the leading to finals, scoring alot of points and high flying are the things Baylor has which I find make him greater than Pippen. But Scottie also has the Olympics, ultimate Robin-guy status and defensive legacy

    There is an argument that Pippen is a better player than Baylor, especially when you place a value on statistics (in context). However Elgin Baylor is unquestionably the greater and more accomplished player.
    See: bold. What I'm trying to say, it's not unquestionably better. In fact, if I had to choose which career I'd want to live, or follow again, I'd choose Pippen's.

  15. #45
    NBA Superstar 97 bulls's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #14. Scottie Pippen vs Elgin Baylor.

    Also, while its impressive that baylor was able to lead the the lakers to the finals as a rookie. Remember he was 24. Which is pretty old for a rooke.

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