Originally Posted by nathanjizzle
9 players on the same team plus and minus in 1 game is comparing all players over all PER? try less trolling.
Individual game plus minus okay, but using it over large samples is stupid?
You want as much data as possible for this stuff.
PER is hardly perfect, but in a case with Rose where he really makes no impact outside of box score stats....it captures his value better than most.
To his credit....Rose is now up to 10 on PER!
Now, the bad stuff for you...as you clearly think on/off matters a lot.
Bulls with Rose on the court? -1.5 points per 100 possessions
Bulls with Rose off the court? +4.9 points per 100 possessions
So what does matter when discussing an individual player? You watch him and think he's good...we watch him so far and think overall he's been dreadful. How do we settle this? We can look to objective measures which all support he's been terrible.
His PER sucks
His VORP sucks
His box score metrics suck
His efficiency sucks
His on/off sucks
His RPM sucks
His defensive metrics suck
Like...at what point and how badly does one have to play in order for you to call a spade a spade? I agree there is much more than just looking at those numbers...and they don't tell you exactly how good a player is, but when everything objective is screaming "this guy sucks right now"...I think that can be used as evidence that, at the very least, he's not a good player. He might not be as bad as those suggest, but to argue he's been a good player, the best player on the Bulls so far like you do, is comical.
And what data can we used to settle this debate that simply isn't the opinions of a fan boy?
The thing is...if Rose started playing great...I'd be able to change my view and say he's started to play great and I'd have no problem doing it. Keep that in mind...I let the evidence dictate my position. You are the exact opposite....you are still arguing for him being the best player on this team and still a good player so far this season. Keep that in mind...you don't let the evidence dictate your position.