Kareem vs. Moses

[DMAVS41]

The 82-83 76ers squad doesn't get as much kudos as they should. Likely because the Lakers, Celtics and (later the) Pistons slurped up most of it back in the day. They were an absolute juggernaut that year.

I don't have any numbers to toss around. I just saw them play in person and am going strictly from memory (which ain't always perfect).

And Moses should get more respect among the all-time greats. He's rarely even mentioned.

I find Moses sometimes hard to rank. I've never seen a list with him outside the top 15 though. Normally he's top 13.

Seems about right to me.

[jlauber]

[/B]

I find Moses sometimes hard to rank. I've never seen a list with him outside the top 15 though. Normally he's top 13.

Seems about right to me.

Well, I really believe that his PRIME, from '79 thru '85, was only matched by a PRIME Chamberlain ('62 thru '68), and a PRIME Shaq ('98 to '05.) Not even Kareem's peak seasons, and against his peers, were as dominant as those three guys were against their's.

[HighFlyer23]

both were leagues above wilt

/thread

[jlauber]

both were leagues above wilt

/thread

Prove it!

Give me SOMETHING...

Any idiot can jump into a topic and make a baseless claim...

[Odinn]

I can agree with Moses being underrated. I'm sorry but sometimes you can be very disturbing. Your thread title "Kareem vs. Moses" and you made this thread to applaud Wilt...

[mrpibb]

I can agree with Moses being underrated. I'm sorry but sometimes you can be very disturbing. Your thread title "Kareem vs. Moses" and you made this thread to applaud Wilt...

No, he didn't. Other people made him talk about Wilt.

[mosesmalone]

Moses game winner over LAL in 1980.10.30.

Moses can't stop the skyhook.
Kareem can't stop Moses tough offense underneath.
Maybe Kareem is a good rebounder in his prime(before 1981),but he didn't show the desire on rebounding in 80s.
Kareem's pass >>> Moses'

[All Net]

Great read jlauber...

[sundizz]

Jlauber you really need to get some sort of job with the NBA. As annoying as you are your passion is unbelievable. I you for being someone that is as passionate about the game as I am. You seem to watch, to have opinions, and to take incredible pains to back up those efforts. A basketball profiler if you will. I think my heaven would be having the top 100 players in a league together and being able to watch a regular season and playoffs comprised of them.

I have to say, I've heard of Moses and always known he was really good and underrated. Your post has opened my eyes to how underrated he really was. Good info to know. Will use it to my advantage is arguments with friends.

A lot of these players from back in the day seen very hard to rank. He averaged about 16 and 9 in 1991 in his 20th season. I always feel that the numbers of players back in those days were greatly inflated by a lack of superior talent. However, some of these players really seem to transcend era's. If Kevin Love can get damn near 14 rpg a game, I won't say a beastly buff Moses couldn't get that much in today's league.

[jlauber]

Jlauber you really need to get some sort of job with the NBA. As annoying as you are your passion is unbelievable. I you for being someone that is as passionate about the game as I am. You seem to watch, to have opinions, and to take incredible pains to back up those efforts. A basketball profiler if you will. I think my heaven would be having the top 100 players in a league together and being able to watch a regular season and playoffs comprised of them.

I have to say, I've heard of Moses and always known he was really good and underrated. Your post has opened my eyes to how underrated he really was. Good info to know. Will use it to my advantage is arguments with friends.

A lot of these players from back in the day seen very hard to rank. He averaged about 16 and 9 in 1991 in his 20th season. I always feel that the numbers of players back in those days were greatly inflated by a lack of superior talent. However, some of these players really seem to transcend era's. If Kevin Love can get damn near 14 rpg a game, I won't say a beastly buff Moses couldn't get that much in today's league.

I appreciate the kind words. Thanks.

As for Moses, there are probably not many here who know that, considering he was a bruiser, that he was damn good FT shooter, too. He had three full seasons of over .800 shooting (.815, .824, and .831.) And, how about FOUR post-seasons (granted, they were only 3, 3, 5, and 5 games), in which he shot,...get this... .929, .933, .952, and even .969 (31-32)!

The more you look at his career, the more "top-10" it becomes...

[jlauber]

Moses...the most under-rated all-time great...

And for those that have Kareem as their GOAT...please read this topic.

[Xiao Yao You]

I preferred Moses but the Kareem I saw was mostly just sky hooks. I loved watching Moses relentlessly work the offensive putbacks one after another.

[Pointguard]

I notice that the people who say Kareem was best in 76 or 77 they say that Kareem knew how to use his body better and establish position better. I used to think they said that to imply that Wilt wouldn't have pushed him around. But here's Moses who is never mentioned as being among the strongest (at least not like you hear about Gilmore, Wilt, Reed or Thurmond's strength) and he's compensating for a lot of height with with work, muscle and tenacity - which is like describing Thurmond who was much more dedicated to defense than MM was. Kareem would have trouble with active centers I think in any part of his career. At least in '71 and '72 he was very active himself.

Once Wilt is gone and Thurmond fades Kareem had that Dwight Howard stage: The dearth of centers made him seem greater but when you see a rare good center next to him he isn't as impressive. Cowens and Moses could out-work him tho - and both could and would out play him from time to time. In the time period you mention Moses just went at the boards harder and didn't let up. A definite case of hard work and tenacity overcoming talent.

[jlauber]

I notice that the people who say Kareem was best in 76 or 77 they say that Kareem knew how to use his body better and establish position better. I used to think they said that to imply that Wilt wouldn't have pushed him around. But here's Moses who is never mentioned as being among the strongest (at least not like you hear about Gilmore, Wilt, Reed or Thurmond's strength) and he's compensating for a lot of height with with work, muscle and tenacity - which is like describing Thurmond who was much more dedicated to defense than MM was. Kareem would have trouble with active centers I think in any part of his career. At least in '71 and '72 he was very active himself.

Once Wilt is gone and Thurmond fades Kareem had that Dwight Howard stage: The dearth of centers made him seem greater but when you see a rare good center next to him he isn't as impressive. Cowens and Moses could out-work him tho - and both could and would out play him from time to time. In the time period you mention Moses just went at the boards harder and didn't let up. A definite case of hard work and tenacity overcoming talent.

Excellent post...as always. IMHO, the "greats" usually hit the ground running. In many cases, their best statistical seasons come early in their careers. MJ had his highest scoring season in his third year, and by his 4th, he had his most productive. Chamberlain obviously was a monster from year one, and by his third season, he set records that will never be approached. In Shaq's second season, he averaged 29.3 ppg on .599 shooting, with 13.2 rpg. All of those numbers were nearly his career bests, and in actuality, were probably better than his MVP season in 2000.

I read how Hakeem was nowhere near his peak in the year's in which Kareem just murdered him ('85 and '86), and yet, in his '86 season, he averaged 23.5 ppg, shot .526 from the floor, and grabbed 11.5 rpg, all in 36.3 mpg. Some here claim his peak came in '94, his only MVP season, and yet, he averaged 27.3 ppg, shot .528, and grabbed 11.9 rpg, and it came in a career high 41 mpg. Given the mpg, his numbers were no more dominant.

Even players like Magic, who would become a better pure shooter as the years went by, still had incredible season early on. In his third year, he nearly averaged a triple double, and did so by being a part-time PG. He also won FMVP in his first and third seasons. And his greatest game came in game six of the NBA Finals in his ROOKIE season.

And I have long maintained that Kareem's PEAK came in his second and third years in the league. And the numbers don't lie, either. In fact, and again using mpg, Kareem's best season was probably his second year. In his second season, in 70-71, he played 40.1 mpg, averaged 31.7 ppg, grabbed 16.0 rpg, handed out 3.3 apg (he was at 4.1 in his rookie season BTW), and shot .577 from the field. (BTW, that .577 came in a league that shot .449...which gave him a differential of .128, which was the highest of his career.) In his '72 season, which many regard as his greatest statistical season, he played a career high 44.2 mpg, scored 34.8 ppg, yanked 16.6 rpg, handed out 4.6 apg, and shot .574. All of the numbers were nearly identical to his previous season.

Yes, he became bigger, in terms of weight, and he developed more range, BUT, he LOST athleticism and quickness. Not only that, but he also lost his "edge' as well. He came into the league as the most heralded player since Wilt hit the NBA 10 years earlier. And, by his second season, he was easily leading the league in scoring, and winning an MVP AND a FMVP. However, I really think an OLD Wilt's outplaying him in both the '71 and '72 WCF's, as well as Thurmond reducing him to just pathetic FG%'s in three straight playoff series, and then finally, in the '74 Finals, when a 6-9 Dave Cowens just dominated him in the seventh game, (and in a blowout win on Kareem's home floor), just shocked him.

When Kareem won the scoring title, the NBA title, the MVP, and the FMVP, all in his second season, he was being UNIVERSALLY predicted to win scoring titles, MVP's, titles, and FMVP's in EVERY season for years to come. And while he did win MVP's in the decade of the 70's, the rest of those predictions never materialized. After Oscar retired, he languished on two losing teams in the middle of the decade, and even when he was surrounded with a wealth of talent, as he was in the '77, '78, and '79 seasons, his team's fell FAR short. Much of it was not his fault, BUT, he rarely stepped up either. Many year point out his 76-77 post-season as some kind of example. The reality was, yes, he dominated a 46-36 Warrior team in the first round, and in a seven game series (and this from a Laker team that went 53-29.) BUT, aside from ONE big game against Walton in the WCF's, the rest of that four game series was a wash between the two...EXCEPT, it was WALTON who was making the big plays late, or dominating in the 4th quarters.

I have doumented Kareem's MANY post-season flop jobs before...whether they be in single games (usually the biggest games, or game seven's); series; or even complete post-seasons. Just a quick recap...in his rookie season, he had a solid ECF's against Reed in the that series, BUT, in the clinching game five loss, Reed pummeled him with a 32 point game, in a 132-96 rout of Kareem's Bucks.

In his second season, EVERYTHING went Kareem's way. His TEAM, with newly acquired Oscar, went 66-16, and then romped to a title with a 12-2 post-season (which included a sweep of the Bullets in the Finals.) Once again...a scoring title, an MVP, a world championship, and a FMVP. BUT, much of it was smoke-and-mirrors, too. Chamberlain, who was clearly a better player the year before, and it showed in their one H2H game, BUT, he blew out his knee. So, he was nowhere near 100% in the '71 season (nor would he ever be the complete offensive force that he had been before that injury.) Not only that, but the Lakers lost Baylor in the third game of the '71 season (and he, too, was never the same.) THEN, West went down in the last fourth of the season, and missed the playoffs.

So, when the playoffs arrived, Kareem's Bucks blew thru a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round. Then, in the WCF's, with a 34 year old Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery, statistically matched Kareem in every offensive category in that series, BUT, without BOTH Baylor and West (and then losing Erickson early in that series), the Bucks easily beat LA, 4-1. On top of that, the 42-40 Bullets shocked the Knicks, 4-3, in the ECF's. So, the Bucks beat a barely .500 team in the Finals.

After that season, virtually EVERYONE was predicting a long dynasty for Milwaukee. Aside from Oscar, they were a young team, and the stronger teams in the NBA, like LA and NY, were aging.

HOWEVER, in the '72 season, the Lakers dumped Baylor, inserted McMillian into their starting lineup, and proceeded to run off 33 wins in a row. They POUNDED the league, too, with Wilt and Hairston owning the glass. They shredded the Bucks in their five regular season games, going 4-1 (and if Wilt didn't run into foul problems in that one loss, it probably would have been 5-0.) The Bucks still went 63-19, BUT, they were looking UP at the 69-13 Lakers.

In the '72 playoffs, the 51-31 Warriors went down against Kareem's Bucks, BUT, Thurmond OUTSCORED and OUTSHOT Kareem in that series (and Kareem, who had averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting, only averaged 22.8 ppg on a horrific .405 shooting against Nate.) Then, as well know by now, after a game one loss, in which LA didn't do anything right, the Lakers waltzed past the Bucks, winning 4 of the next 5 games, including a 25 point win in game five, and a stunning comeback win in game six in Milwaukee. And, virtually EVERYONE who watched and covered that series, acclaimed that Wilt had outplayed Kareem in that series. Furthermore, in the last four games of that series, Wilt held Kareem to .414 shooting. It was an absolute shocking season for the Bucks, who were expected to run off a long run of titles.

Continued...

[jlauber]

From that HUGE letdown of the '72 season, the rest of the decade went into a spinning downward spiral.

In his '73 season, Kareem took his 60-22 Bucks down in flames in the first round of the playoffs against the 47-35 Warriors. In that series, Kareem once again was held WAY below his scoring and shooting numbers by Thurmond. In the regular season, Kareem had averaged 30.0 ppg on .554 shooting. In that series against Nate... 22.8 ppg on a horrid .428 from the floor. BTW, Chamberlain just murdered Nate in the next round, taking HIS 60-22 Lakers to an easy 4-1 romp over Nate's Warriors (and in that series, Wilt outrebounded Nate, 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg, and outshot Nate, .550 to .398.)

Wilt retired after that 72-73 season, and the expectations were, with Wilt gone, that Kareem would be unchallenged the rest of the decade. He did get his 59-23 Bucks to the Finals in that '74 season, BUT, in game seven, and on his home floor, the 6-9 Cowens outplayed him in every facet of the game, and the result was a blowout home loss for Kareem and his Bucks.

Oscar retired after that season, and the result...the Bucks went from a 59-23 championship team, down to a 38-44 non-playoff team. True, Kareem broke his hand, and missed 16 games, but even in the games he did play, they only went 35-31.

The Bucks could see that the sulking Kareem was no longer happy in Milwaukee, and they shipped him off the next season. I have long maintained that, IF Kareem could have challenged any of Wilt's records, THAT was the perfect situation for him. He came to a 30-52 Lakers team that desperately needed him to take over offensively. I get a kick out of those that have labeled Wilt a "stats-padder" in some of his seasons, but how about Kareem? In Kareem's greatest statistical season, 71-72, he played a career high 44.2 mpg, on a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg differential.

So, here was Kareem, playing with a below average roster in 75-76, and a team that needed him to step up big-time. YET, in that season, he could only play 41.2 mpg. And unlike 71-72, when he averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting, he suddenly declined to 27.7 ppg on only .529 shooting in '76. The result...his Lakers went 40-42, and missed the playoffs.

The Lakers retooled in the following season, 76-77, and as a result, they had the best record in the league, going 53-29. And, as previously noted, this would be Kareem's finest statistical post-season. He was brilliant in the first round of the playoffs, but, still, it took his Lakers seven games to knock off the 46-36 Warriors. In the WCF's, Kareem had ONE huge game against Walton, but the rest of that matchup was a stand-off...except, Walton was the more clutch player. And, the result was a shocking 4-0 sweep by the 49-33 Blazers.

LA acquired Adrian Dantley early in the 77-78 season, (and BTW, he was averaging 26.5 ppg when the got him) to go along with players like Norm Nixon, Lou Hudson, and Jamaal Wilkes. Wilkes was particular interesting. He and Rick Barry, and a bunch of no-names, won a title with a 48-34 team in the '75 season.

So, the Lakers were probably the most STACKED team in the league in BOTH '78 and '79. And yet, they only went 45-37 and then 47-35, and were blown out in the first round of the playoffs in '78, and in the second round, 4-1, in '79, by Sonics teams that went 47-35 and 50-32, and that only had ONE borderline HOF player. In fact, in the clinching loss in the first round of the '78 playoffs, Marvin "the Human Eraser" outplayed Kareem.

Interesting too, that, after Wilt retired following the '73 season, that the NBA had the weakest NBA champions of any decade in it's history. The 48-34 Warriors won it '75; the 56-26 Celts in '76; the 49-33 Blazers in '77; the 44-38 Bullets in '78; and the 50-32 Sonics in '79. And STILL, from the '75 season on, Kareem could only get to the conference Finals, ONE time (and his team was SWEPT), and never came close to tasting the Finals in that time frame.

Overall, in the decade of the 70's, Kareem went to two Finals, and won ONE ring (in arguably the easiest run to a title in NBA history.) He played on teams that went 63-19, 60-22, 59-23 that did not win a title (and only ONE of those even made it to the Finals.) He also played on a 56-26 team that was routed in the ECF's, and another, a 53-29 team, which had the best record in the league, that was SWEPT in the WCF's, by a 49-33 team.

Continued...