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  1. #46
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    Default Re: Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ne 1
    Conclusion: The Reason for Russell's low PPG in the NBA was Russell was given very few opportunities to score (13 FGA)
    Well, IMO, Russell just wasn't a scorer. He shot 44% from the field for his career and 56% from the line. Russell did a lot of things to help his teams win like defense whether it be helping out and blocking or altering shots, or guarding Wilt, starting fast breaks with outlet passes, rebounding, setting picks and providing leadership. But scoring just wasn't an area excelled in, IMO. Even if you watch the footage that's available, you'll rarely see him make a shot in the low post, most of his points were dunks or lay ups set ip by Cousy, or put backs. Not that there's anything wrong with that, or that it should exclude him from GOAT discussions, because I agree that there shouldn't be any set rules. These rankings are subjective.

    Edit: Also on the subject of rebounds, I think minutes have to be taken into consideration when discussing the modern equivalent because stars played more minutes back then. Several were playing 44-45 mpg and a few played even more, this hasn't been the case in the past 20 years, so I think OldSchool's estimate for rebounding is pretty close.

    John Stockton only averaged 13 PPG is he worthy to be included in the top 15-20?
    Well, personally, I don't think Stockton should be in the discussion for top 15-20, though my reasoning isn't based on his scoring numbers.


    Quote Originally Posted by NoEasy9
    It was the defense that separated Jordan from Magic and Bird. Magic and Bird were good at playing the passing lanes, but that was it. Jordan could shut down players and was a tremendous help side defender. Offensively, Jordan isnt even that much better than Bird. He is better, but not as much as most people think.
    I Disagree about Bird's defense. His team defense was very good overall. Very high IQ and good at helping out and double teaming and his rotations were excellent. He used his limited athletic ability as well as he could, he typically played hard at that end and could contest a shot and go straight up though he wasn't a shot blocker. His man defense really wasn't bad for the era either, though guarding players with good post games was considered his weakness. I think he was a superior defender to Magic, not as good defensively as Jordan of course, but he made 3 all-defensive teams for a reason.
    Last edited by ShaqAttack3234; 01-11-2011 at 12:31 AM.

  2. #47
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    Default Re: Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

    What was the league average in FG% around that time Shaq?

  3. #48
    NBA lottery pick BarberSchool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

    Some troll job this has been.

  4. #49
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    Default Re: Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

    I think greatest winner of all time is an appropriate title for Russell. There it is, Russel is Gwoat. He was not the Greatest of All Time which is an individual accolade which is more about the player than the outcome. Tom Brady won more than Peyton Manning yet you don't hear this GOAT thing on Brady. Derek Jeter won't get the GOAT argument over Pujols. Henri Richard who won 11 Cups with Montreal but he isn't in the league of Gretsky... But in basketball... .

    I have him ranked high but I have trouble with making GWOAT = GOAT. In every other team sport, the greatest is very skilled with the instrument in use. Russell is far inferior with the rock than anybody in the consensus top ten (Wilt, Jordan, KAJ, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan). Amazingly a world class sprinter and high jumper with great reach has stunningly low FG% numbers while not pushing the issue. He was smart enough to play within his limitations but but he still shot below 37% in four playoff runs. He shot below 44% in like 8 of his seasons. And this with him being at point blank range. He surpassed 17ppg only twice in 13 years. Since I noticed that DRose doesn't get fouled enough Russell wasn't good at the line either. He is however, a very good passer but not at some astonishing level and he isn't used as prototype for being a great passing center either.

    So he concedes offense to more than likely to anybody in the top 20 best players in the game. So his defense should be incomparable to anybody

  5. #50
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    Default Re: Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

    No disrespect to Bill Russell, but honestly he probably isn't one of the top 10 offensive players in NBA history.

    Great defensive player, solid on the offensive end (but not great), tremendous leader.

    Jordan has all the individual dominance (scoring titles, MVPs, highest scoring average in NBA history, etc.) that people look at one top of a ton of championships/team success as well, and he dominated on both ends of the court.

    There's just no holes in Jordan's resume.

  6. #51
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    Default Re: Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Funk
    Doesn't Bill Russell deserve to be considered the GOAT since he does have 11 Championships and could have had 7 maybe more Finals MVP's. Isn't the ultimate goal is to win it all? A lot of ppl will point out Russell's era as if he had an advantage over his competition...

    ESPN and he is a better individual player.. NOt sure about a better team player.. Probably not...

  7. #52
    Scott Hastings Fan G.O.A.T's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

    A few things that need some clarification or counter points...

    1) The Celtics were not by far the most talented team of their era. From 60-63 maybe, but that's it. When they added Russell and Heinsohn they lost Ed Macauley and Cliff Hagan (Both HOFer's also)

    2) Russell was not a weak offensive player: He is the greatest passing center of all-time statistically and in my opinion. He almost always shot above the league average in FG%. He had multiple 20+ per game averages for postseason games, multiple 30 point games closing out the NBA Finals and did all this without a single play being run in the half court for him in his 13 years. Russell didn't score because he didn't need to score for the Celtics to win most nights. When they needed him to score, he scored.

    3) I don't rank players based on who I think was better at skill A+ skill B, but that being said, Russell is not just a little better defensively than Jordan, he's way better. Russell is the Greatest defensive player ever and it's not debatable. He invented blocked shot intimidation and defensive scouting of player tendencies. The only thing that comes close to Russell's impact of defense is Wilt Chamberlain's impact on offense.

    4) It was harder to win title's in the 1960's because of the 8-9 teams, not easier. As soon as the league expanded (and Russ retired) many more teams started winning titles.

    5) When Russell entered the NBA in 1956 it was still 80% white, but that changed right away. By 1965 more than 2/3rds of the starters were black. Russell was basketball's Jackie Robinson, it's first black star and the one who changed the game for future generations.

    There are a lot of good reasons to rank Jordan above Russell, there are even reasons to rank Kareem or Wilt above him if you don't think winning is the most important thing (you're wrong if you think that, but I understand some still do) My problem is and has always been that most people don't take the time to understand Russell's impact. I've never seen anyone (on ISH) who fully understands his game and doesn't say something that is a long ways from accurate when explaining their case against him. Hope this helps.

  8. #53
    NBA rookie of the year ginobli2311's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

    Quote Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
    A few things that need some clarification or counter points...

    1) The Celtics were not by far the most talented team of their era. From 60-63 maybe, but that's it. When they added Russell and Heinsohn they lost Ed Macauley and Cliff Hagan (Both HOFer's also)

    2) Russell was not a weak offensive player: He is the greatest passing center of all-time statistically and in my opinion. He almost always shot above the league average in FG%. He had multiple 20+ per game averages for postseason games, multiple 30 point games closing out the NBA Finals and did all this without a single play being run in the half court for him in his 13 years. Russell didn't score because he didn't need to score for the Celtics to win most nights. When they needed him to score, he scored.

    3) I don't rank players based on who I think was better at skill A+ skill B, but that being said, Russell is not just a little better defensively than Jordan, he's way better. Russell is the Greatest defensive player ever and it's not debatable. He invented blocked shot intimidation and defensive scouting of player tendencies. The only thing that comes close to Russell's impact of defense is Wilt Chamberlain's impact on offense.

    4) It was harder to win title's in the 1960's because of the 8-9 teams, not easier. As soon as the league expanded (and Russ retired) many more teams started winning titles.

    5) When Russell entered the NBA in 1956 it was still 80% white, but that changed right away. By 1965 more than 2/3rds of the starters were black. Russell was basketball's Jackie Robinson, it's first black star and the one who changed the game for future generations.

    There are a lot of good reasons to rank Jordan above Russell, there are even reasons to rank Kareem or Wilt above him if you don't think winning is the most important thing (you're wrong if you think that, but I understand some still do) My problem is and has always been that most people don't take the time to understand Russell's impact. I've never seen anyone (on ISH) who fully understands his game and doesn't say something that is a long ways from accurate when explaining their case against him. Hope this helps.
    its hard for someone like me because the only thing i have to go off of is research and a combination of people's opinions (like yours).....because i never saw russell or wilt play live.

    its easy for me to compare magic/jordan/bird/hakeem/shaq/duncan because i watched all of them play both in college and in the pros.

  9. #54
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    Default Re: Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2010splash
    Celtics fans crack me up. Bill Russell's skillset resembled a Deke Mutombo at best. He played in a weak era and won a lot... who cares?
    You do not seriously believe that his skillset resembles Dikembe Mutombo? That is beyond ridiculous.

    Of course, like the majority of posters here, I have never seen Bill Russell play. But I can say that I watched alot of footage of him, and he was EASILY better than Mutombo. It's ridiculous to even make such a foolish statement.

    From the footage I've observed, Not only was he obviously a dominant rebounder and shot-blocker.... Russell was also a good passer, particularly outlet passing. Also, Russell was a better transition defender than given credit for.... I've seen many videos of him sprinting full court, chasing down the defender and pinning the shot off the glass in the same manner that LeBron does, and people go ballistic over it.

    And though Russell was not a dominant offensive player, he still provided quality buckets. Didn't he average something like 23.5 ppg on 45% shooting in the 1965 finals, I believe?

  10. #55
    Local High School Star Johnni Gade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

    MJ was a better player imo :)

  11. #56
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    Default Re: Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

    Quote Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
    A few things that need some clarification or counter points...

    1) The Celtics were not by far the most talented team of their era. From 60-63 maybe, but that's it. When they added Russell and Heinsohn they lost Ed Macauley and Cliff Hagan (Both HOFer's also)

    2) Russell was not a weak offensive player: He is the greatest passing center of all-time statistically and in my opinion. He almost always shot above the league average in FG%. He had multiple 20+ per game averages for postseason games, multiple 30 point games closing out the NBA Finals and did all this without a single play being run in the half court for him in his 13 years. Russell didn't score because he didn't need to score for the Celtics to win most nights. When they needed him to score, he scored.

    3) I don't rank players based on who I think was better at skill A+ skill B, but that being said, Russell is not just a little better defensively than Jordan, he's way better. Russell is the Greatest defensive player ever and it's not debatable. He invented blocked shot intimidation and defensive scouting of player tendencies. The only thing that comes close to Russell's impact of defense is Wilt Chamberlain's impact on offense.

    4) It was harder to win title's in the 1960's because of the 8-9 teams, not easier. As soon as the league expanded (and Russ retired) many more teams started winning titles.

    5) When Russell entered the NBA in 1956 it was still 80% white, but that changed right away. By 1965 more than 2/3rds of the starters were black. Russell was basketball's Jackie Robinson, it's first black star and the one who changed the game for future generations.

    There are a lot of good reasons to rank Jordan above Russell, there are even reasons to rank Kareem or Wilt above him if you don't think winning is the most important thing (you're wrong if you think that, but I understand some still do) My problem is and has always been that most people don't take the time to understand Russell's impact. I've never seen anyone (on ISH) who fully understands his game and doesn't say something that is a long ways from accurate when explaining their case against him. Hope this helps.

    This. I feel Russell is underrated here and he is a top 3 player by far. I personally have him as #2 on my list. Thoughts on this post OldSchoolBBall???

  12. #57
    Good High School Starter nycelt84's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pointguard
    Tom Brady won more than Peyton Manning yet you don't hear this GOAT thing on Brady.
    Tom Brady is and has always been better than Peyton Manning. Up until a few years ago the majority of football writers agreed and if/or when the Patriots win the Super Bowl this year you will start to hear a lot of people calling Tom Brady the greatest QB of all-time.

  13. #58
    NBA rookie of the year ginobli2311's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

    Quote Originally Posted by nycelt84
    Tom Brady is and has always been better than Peyton Manning. Up until a few years ago the majority of football writers agreed and if/or when the Patriots win the Super Bowl this year you will start to hear a lot of people calling Tom Brady the greatest QB of all-time.
    yea. if you did a poll in 5 years about the greatest qb's of all time. it would be brady/montana battling it out for the number 1 spot unless something seriously changes.

    if the pats win it all this year.....the manning vs. brady discussion is pretty much dead. brady would have 4 superbowls and manning would be 9-10 in the playoffs.

    really not much of a discussion mainly because brady's level of play has been much higher in the playoffs.

  14. #59
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    Default Re: Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

    Quote Originally Posted by ginobli2311
    yea. if you did a poll in 5 years about the greatest qb's of all time. it would be brady/montana battling it out for the number 1 spot unless something seriously changes.

    if the pats win it all this year.....the manning vs. brady discussion is pretty much dead. brady would have 4 superbowls and manning would be 9-10 in the playoffs.

    really not much of a discussion mainly because brady's level of play has been much higher in the playoffs.
    yup, factor in that manning is older and has no chance to catch up.

  15. #60
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    Default Re: Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

    I don't think its that close. Jordan was a clear-cut best player on his team and in the league during hi time, and Russel was not. I am just not convinced that Russel was that much more valuable than someone like Cousy in the early years and Havlicek in the later years. As for Russel being a great rebounder - yes, he was but Chamberlain averaged slightly more. For those of you who are claiming that Russel could have been a great scorer if he wanted to, I am not convinced - compare his shooting percentage to Chamberlain's or even a guard like Oscar Robinson. Bottom line is that Russel is a great winner, but too limited of a player to be considered GOAT.

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