What would Dr J's career and legacy be like if...

[dankok8]

Okay, let's compare notes on that because I didn't see those games, but we do know from reputable eye witnesses that they were not regular pre-season games. There was a rivalry between the two leagues, and there was reputedly "bad blood" that even after the leagues merged, the NBA, in effect, fined the ABA teams that entered the NBA.

This makes complete sense, because even today when an NBA team goes to Europe, it's a little different, and you see starters playing in the 4th quarter because there are reputations to uphold and there is a rivalry. Now imagine 2 leagues competing for the same market. Below is a link that details all the games between the ABA and NBA. What I see are stars of both leagues scoring heavily and playing heavy minutes.

http://www.remembertheaba.com/abasta...hibitions.html

Also this :

"ABA vs. NBA exhibition games were always intense, due to the bad blood between the leagues. Ultra-competitive superstars like Rick Barry (Nets and Warriors), Dave Cowens (Celtics), and Charlie Scott (Squires, Suns and Celtics) were thrown out of interleague games with multiple technical fouls (see details below). Coaches like Larry Brown (Cougars and Nuggets) and Tommy Heinsohn (Celtics) often ended up listening to interleague games in the locker room, after being ejected...."

Check this out too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americ...ciation_merger

"In the summer before the 1971–72 season the ABA and NBA met in an interleague All Star Game. The NBA won a close game, 125–120.[17][18] In that same preseason, ABA and NBA teams began playing exhibition games against each other.[1][6] The first such exhibition was played on September 21, 1971 with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and the Milwaukee Bucks barely defeating the Dallas Chaparrals, 106–103.[6] Gradually, the ABA began to prove itself superior, going 15–10 against the NBA in 1973, 16–7 in 1974, and 31–17 in 1975. Overall, the ABA won more of these interleague games than the NBA did, and in every matchup of reigning champions from the two leagues, the ABA champion won, including in the final pre-merger season when the Kentucky Colonels defeated the Golden State Warriors.[19] Boston Globe sportswriter Bob Ryan said of the ABA-NBA exhibition games: "When those exhibition games began, the view in the NBA was, 'Now we'll show those guys.' But then you know what happened—the ABA teams won nearly as often as the NBA did .... Those NBA–ABA games were intense."[20] Longtime NBA coach Larry Brown said of the ABA vs. NBA games, "When some exhibition games were arranged in the 1970s to make some money and we (the ABA) beat them, the NBA said they weren't up for the games. Come on. When I coached Carolina, we played the Knicks after they won a championship. I looked at their guys shooting around and I looked at my guys and I didn't want my players to take off their warm-ups because they looked so scrawny next to the Knicks—and we went out and beat New York. We also played the Celtics a couple of times and beat them. (Celtics coach) Tommy Heinsohn would say that he wasn't playing to win, but I'd check the box score and see that Tommy played his regulars 35 to 40 minutes, so what does that tell you?"[21]

Interest in ABA vs. NBA play extended beyond the two leagues' management. In 1976, CBS sought to establish a postseason playoff between the ABA and NBA, and to win the rights to broadcast those games.[22]"

Also this:

"Sportswriter Bob Ryan: "When writers such as Jim O'Brien and Peter Vescey wrote that the two leagues were very close, that some ABA teams were among the top five of all pro basketball teams, I thought they had no objectivity and that they were too close to the teams they were writing about to really understand pro basketball. Then came the merger, and Denver and San Antonio won division titles. What could I say? Guys like Jim O'Brien were right."[95]

Again, I didn't see those years, but i believe there is substantial evidence that by the time the two leagues merged, there was parity between the 2 leagues. That much is clear to me.

And had there been an NBA vs ABA Finals series, the ABA champ could have beaten the NBA champ somewhere between 1974-1976. Remember the AFL and Joe Namath?

I'm not denying that there was bad blood between the leagues.

Please look up the NBA-ABA Exhibitions game logs from nbastats.net since that's where I'm getting my info from.

The Celtics went 6-7 against the ABA but Cowens only played 3 out of those 13 games.

The Bulls went 3-7 against the ABA but Sloan only played 1 out of those 10 games and Walker only in 1 of those 10 games as well.

The Braves went 2-6 against the ABA but McAdoo only played in 5 out of those 8 games.

The Sonics went 1-6 against the ABA but Downtown Freddie Brown played in just 2 out of those 7 games.

The Kansas City Kings went 3-7 against the ABA but Tiny Archibald played in just 4 out of those 10 games.

The Bucks went 7-3 against the ABA until 1974 but Kareem only played in 8 out of those 10 games.


NBA teams weren't at full strength for most of those games. I haven't checked the ABA teams much but either way those were not really informative match-ups. Forget even preseason games for a second. Hell how many times have we seen a team get killed even in the regular season by a certain team and then dominate them in the playoffs?


Defensively the NBA was a far superior league. The 1976 NBA had a DRtg of 98.3 while the 1976 ABA had a DRtg of 104.1. A 5.8 differential in DRtg is equivalent to a difference between the #1 best defensive team in the league and the #22 defensive team in the league in 2015. In other words, the defense in the NBA was several tiers better.

[Psileas]

... he played his whole career in the NBA instead of playing in the ABA till 1976?

Atlanta drafted him in 1972 so just assume he plays there until 1976 and then goes to the Sixers and the rest of his career plays out the same way it did.

In my opinion he would be nowhere near #15 all time which is where he's typically ranked if he played in the NBA his whole career. He won two titles and won three consecutive MVP's in the ABA and there is no chance in hell that would happen in the NBA.

Thoughts?

Actually Milwaukee did. And that's a scary thought, given who were already playing for Milwaukee back then...

[dankok8]

Actually Milwaukee did. And that's a scary thought, given who were already playing for Milwaukee back then...

Yes you're right. I had a brain fart. And that's why they didn't let him join the Hawks in 1972 when he tried. Because the Bucks had his rights and threatened to sue.

Playing as a #2 to Kareem, they could have won 2-3 more titles. My thread assumed he joined Atlanta only because that's a more balanced situation. Like you said Erving on the Bucks would be overpowering.

[SpanishACB]

It would have been interesting. After Wilt retired, the NBA became a much weaker league. By '75, we had 48-34 title team, and in '77 a 49-33 title winner. Hell, in '78 a 44-38 team won a ring.

the argument you're using to describe a weak league works the same to describe a strong league.

for such a verbose high effort poster you sure lack the most common of logic.

[LAZERUSS]

the argument you're using to describe a weak league works the same to describe a strong league.

for such a verbose high effort poster you sure lack the most common of logic.

As you obviously could tell, I meant that the CHAMPIONS were MUCH weaker.

E.G. the '75 Warriors. Rick Barry and a cast of no-names.

Interesting, too, that the Warriors ADDED Gus Williams the very next year...ran away with the best record in the league, and then lost to a 40-42 team in the WCF's.

[dankok8]

As you obviously could tell, I meant that the CHAMPIONS were MUCH weaker.

E.G. the '75 Warriors. Rick Barry and a cast of no-names.

Interesting, too, that the Warriors ADDED Gus Williams the very next year...ran away with the best record in the league, and then lost to a 40-42 team in the WCF's.

The champions were a bit weaker. I mean the 1971 Bucks, 1972 Lakers, and 1973-1974 Celtics were all time great teams.

Most of it was just parity though. From 1975-1979 most of the team in the league won between 25 and 55 games. Almost every single one.

[LAZERUSS]

The champions were a bit weaker. I mean the 1971 Bucks, 1972 Lakers, and 1973-1974 Celtics were all time great teams.

Most of it was just parity though. From 1975-1979 most of the team in the league won between 25 and 55 games. Almost every single one.

Can't forget the Knicks either. Their '73 team had six HOFers.

[dankok8]

Can't forget the Knicks either. Their '73 team had six HOFers.

No doubt... 1970 and 1973 Knicks, 1977 Blazers were also truly great.

[Dr.J4ever]

I'm not denying that there was bad blood between the leagues.

Please look up the NBA-ABA Exhibitions game logs from nbastats.net since that's where I'm getting my info from.

The Celtics went 6-7 against the ABA but Cowens only played 3 out of those 13 games.

The Bulls went 3-7 against the ABA but Sloan only played 1 out of those 10 games and Walker only in 1 of those 10 games as well.

The Braves went 2-6 against the ABA but McAdoo only played in 5 out of those 8 games.

The Sonics went 1-6 against the ABA but Downtown Freddie Brown played in just 2 out of those 7 games.

The Kansas City Kings went 3-7 against the ABA but Tiny Archibald played in just 4 out of those 10 games.

The Bucks went 7-3 against the ABA until 1974 but Kareem only played in 8 out of those 10 games.


NBA teams weren't at full strength for most of those games. I haven't checked the ABA teams much but either way those were not really informative match-ups. Forget even preseason games for a second. Hell how many times have we seen a team get killed even in the regular season by a certain team and then dominate them in the playoffs?


Defensively the NBA was a far superior league. The 1976 NBA had a DRtg of 98.3 while the 1976 ABA had a DRtg of 104.1. A 5.8 differential in DRtg is equivalent to a difference between the #1 best defensive team in the league and the #22 defensive team in the league in 2015. In other words, the defense in the NBA was several tiers better.

Defensive and Ortg rating is not a be all, end all. The teams aren't playing vs. each other and this is only useful in a context when teams all play vs. each other. It also doesn't account for style of play, and the ABA clearly had a different style.

All the information I provided from Wiki and other sites and quotes from respected expert writers from that era cannot be challenged. To me, it's a firm and reasonable basis to form an opinion.

Please also see the link I provided and as I said, what I see there are stars of both sides scoring heavily and playing heavy minutes. Each game from 1971 up to 1975 are documented there. You agree there was bad blood between the leagues, and yet you don't seem to think that it carried over to the games. Hmmm. Also, if the NBA was truly superior, eventually there would have been a point where they would have said, let's teach these guys a lesson. There is no way that those games were regular pre-season games based on Bob Ryans quote and others.

Another thing, in the new post merger NBA, Denver was close to having the best record in the NBA. I think one or two games off the pace, and a poster provided info here that they had the best defense(didn't check that but with Bobby Jones playing for them anything is possible) in the newly merged NBA.

I believe Lazerus said Denver gave the champion Blazers(who were reinforced with ABA PF Maurice Lucas) the most trouble in the Playoffs(6 game series). By the way, this is the same Denver team that the NY Nets, led by Julius who was just spectacular, dispatched in 6 games in the last ABA Finals . In the 1977 NBA finals, 5 of the 10 starters in the series were ABA players.

Yes, I respect your opinion but I believe we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

[kennethgriffin]

pre merger accolades are equally worthless on both ends of the spectrum

nba and aba equally

it was a bad era

period

[bizil]

Before Bird and Magic came around, peak Doc was the best perimeter player in the world. And ONLY behind Kareem and at times Moses as the best player in the world. So just off THAT ALONE, Doc deserves mad props. No matter the league, he would have gained a massive amount of solo accolades.

And if I was the Hawks, I would have went with Pete at PG, Lou at SG, and Doc at the SF. I actually think that squad could have had a shot at a ring. So if Doc wins a ring there AND ADDS to his Sixers ring, I think he still ends up in the top 15 GOAT. He's ALREADY arguably there as it is. Another ring with the Hawks would solidify that. And maybe even bump him up higher.

But in general, I STILL think Doc is the GOAT SF for PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL HISTORY! When u combine his ABA and NBA stats, he still has a great case to this day. When looking at strictly NBA history, Bird and Bron are the top two GOAT SF's.

[kawhileonard2]

So if we transfer over all his ABA accomplishments into the NBA, his resume would look something like this

4 MVP's
2 Finals MVP's
12 All-NBA selections (9 First Teams)
6th all time in career scoring

Looks pretty damn similar, exactly the same actually, to a player a good amount of posters say isn't top 10 all time

Basically he is Lebron.

[La Frescobaldi]

Basically he is Lebron.

Man let us be straight now the ABA ain’t all that and never was any of that.

how many ABA players are remembered today? Like 5 or 6 at most. Giant stars of the ABA pretty much vanished in the NBA. Totally just couldn’t keep up.

I know there’s guys that wanna prop up Doc by saying how great his competition was but here is the truth of it: the ABA was not great, and Julius Erving WAS great. He doesn’t need anybody propping him up, he’s atg at the highest level. Not because he was in the ABA but because he is Doc.

But ABA accolades don’t mean what NBA accolades mean.

[kawhileonard2]

Man let us be straight now the ABA ain’t all that and never was any of that.

how many ABA players are remembered today? Like 5 or 6 at most. Giant stars of the ABA pretty much vanished in the NBA. Totally just couldn’t keep up.

I know there’s guys that wanna prop up Doc by saying how great his competition was but here is the truth of it: the ABA was not great, and Julius Erving WAS great. He doesn’t need anybody propping him up, he’s atg at the highest level. Not because he was in the ABA but because he is Doc.

But ABA accolades don’t mean what NBA accolades mean.

The ABA was better than the NBA in the 70's when they went head to head.