What would Dr J's career and legacy be like if...

[MiseryCityTexas]

Actually , Rick Barry failed in ABA and then he came the NBA and he won championship without star or superstar in NBA .

ABA Teams always won against NBA Teams after 1973.

http://www.remembertheaba.com/abasta...hibitions.html

Skywalker was looks like T-Mac with x2 shorter career . Gervin was clearly better player than him.

I compare DT more to D Wade because they both 6'4 tall, both drive to the basket and draw fouls, and both can jump out of the gym and do insane dunks. Wade could've easily won the dunk contest if he wanted to.

[MiseryCityTexas]

The NBA sucks ass today. I bet if a player like Bob Rule played in today's league, he would be the best center in the NBA today.

Prime Shareef Abdur Rahim would probably be the third best small forward in the league after Lebron and Paul George if he woulda been in his absolute prime in today's league.

[warriorfan]

Dr J Legacy is being Alpha AF and checking bird after he was talking too much shit

[dankok8]

Yeah, he would be more like top 10. Question: what makes you sure the NBA was stronger than the ABA during that time period?

Top 10? How? If Dr J played in the NBA from 1972-1976 (on the Hawks because they drafted him) he would almost certainly not win a single title. Yes the Hawks had Maravich, Lou Hudson, and even Walt Bellamy for a few years but that team would not have enough defense + other teams like the Celtics, Knicks, and Bullets were stronger. And he most certainly wouldn't win 3 MVP's like he did in the ABA. He would win one MVP at most and probably in 1976.

So basically Dr J retires with

27k points
1-2 MVP's
1 title as a #2 option

He's probably a borderline top 25 player instead of a borderline top 15 player.

Hope you're not serious about the ABA being as strong as the NBA.

[dankok8]

Actually , Rick Barry failed in ABA and then he came the NBA and he won championship without star or superstar in NBA .

ABA Teams always won against NBA Teams after 1973.

http://www.remembertheaba.com/abasta...hibitions.html

Skywalker was looks like T-Mac with x2 shorter career . Gervin was clearly better player than him.

I've seen people cite the records of the NBA-ABA games as some kind of proof but it's not at all.

#1 - those were exhibition games

#2 - the vast majority of the games were played in or around ABA cities and very rarely in NBA cities

#3 - the ABA players were very motivated to use these games to prove they were on NBA level; most times NBA guys didn't care nearly as much

[feyki]

I've seen people cite the records of the NBA-ABA games as some kind of proof but it's not at all.

#1 - those were exhibition games

#2 - the vast majority of the games were played in or around ABA cities and very rarely in NBA cities

#3 - the ABA players were very motivated to use these games to prove they were on NBA level; most times NBA guys didn't care nearly as much

Well , Why NBA Teams usually won against ABA Teams between 68-72 ?

I compare DT more to D Wade because they both 6'4 tall, both drive to the basket and draw fouls, and both can jump out of the gym and do insane dunks. Wade could've easily won the dunk contest if he wanted to.

Skywalker had more vertical than Wade . Skywalker also probably taller than Wade around 1-1.5 inches with modern shoes . He had close physicality to T-Mac than Wade . Wade had 35 max vertical , Skywalker had probably 40+ max vertical like T-Mac .

Wade was different player , his defence , explosiveness , drives to the basket were like Jordan .

NBA's strongest postition in the early to mid 70s was power forward, and center while the ABA had the best shooting guards and small forwards. The Bulls teams of the 70s were pitifully underrated. They had Bob Love, Jerry Sloan, Norn Van Lier, and Chet Walker all on the same damned team.

Yes , Bulls had nice roster and they were contender at mid 70's , like Along past three years Pacers .


But look at those ABA Teams ;

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYA/1972.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/INA/1972.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/KEN/1973.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYA/1974.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/INA/1974.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTS/1974.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/KEN/1975.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAA/1976.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/INA/1976.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYA/1976.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DNA/1976.html

www.basketball-reference.com/teams/KEN/1976.html


ABA was clearly better league than NBA at 1976 . 1974 is debatable , 1975 is close to ABA .

[JellyBean]

... he played his whole career in the NBA instead of playing in the ABA till 1976?

Atlanta drafted him in 1972 so just assume he plays there until 1976 and then goes to the Sixers and the rest of his career plays out the same way it did.

In my opinion he would be nowhere near #15 all time which is where he's typically ranked if he played in the NBA his whole career. He won two titles and won three consecutive MVP's in the ABA and there is no chance in hell that would happen in the NBA.

Thoughts?

Dr. J's legacy would be the same. The Doc was the Doc. His was a competitor to the highest degree and would have played well in the NBA just like he did in the ABA. Doc's legacy is fine where it is at.

[JellyBean]

Dr J Legacy is being Alpha AF and checking bird after he was talking too much shit

I remember watching that game as a kid. I think we all wanted to choke and hit Larry Bird at the time. The dude was talking crap and backing it up. Doc had enough. Plus he told Doc "I think you should retire!". Bird had 30 something by the 3rd quarter. He was killing Doc.

[dankok8]

Well , Why NBA Teams usually won against ABA Teams between 68-72 ?

Because the NBA had just completely overwhelming talent during that period. There were literally a handful of ABA players who could even start on an NBA team in that period.

ABA was clearly better league than NBA at 1976 . 1974 is debatable , 1975 is close to ABA .

The NBA was still a lot better than the ABA in 1976. You don't have to look at much more than how the merger affected these guys.

Dr J who was the cornerstone of the ABA had his numbers decline dramatically (from 29.3/11.0/5.0 to 21.7/8.5/3.7) and he went from a 1st Team Defender in the ABA to being merely a good defensive player. Of course his best NBA years were better but even then nowhere near his best ABA seasons. He went from being by far the best player of the ABA to one of the five best players in the NBA but never the best.

Gilmore came into the NBA as an MVP and a #2 player in the league in the ABA. In the NBA he was merely a top 5-7 center (behind Kareem, Walton, McAdoo, Moses, Lanier most of the time...) and not a distinguished defender he was in the ABA. Gilmore was never even a top 10 player in the post-merger NBA.

Dan Issel was a poor rebounder and soft defender in the NBA and even offensively he was below his best ABA seasons. He made 1 all-star team.


Some other ABA super stars like George McGinnis and Billy Knight made 1-2 all-star games and then faded into irrelevance. The physical toll of the senior league took them out of commission.

Many other ABA stars like Ralph Simpson, Ron Boone, Billy Paultz and Louie Dampier became role players in the NBA.


When several perennial all-stars in one league are not even starters in the other despite still being young at the time of merger, that's a clear sign which league is stronger!

Gervin, Thompson, Moses, Knight, Kenon etc. were all 23 years old or less at the time of the merger so naturally they improved in the NBA.

[Dr.J4ever]

This is my first time back here on this board in a long time(I've been mostly on the 76ers SB site Liberty Ballers), and I couldn't help but notice this thread. Of course I can't resist to not join in the fray. Just a little bit maybe LOL.

The issue of how great Julius was seems to be directly linked to how good the ABA was at it's peak since Julius played in the ABA during it's peak years between 1973-1975. Let's take a look at an excerpt from the site, "Remember the ABA":

"However, in the later years of the rivalry, the tide began to turn. Buoyed by younger, better talent and (in many cases) the home court advantage, ABA teams began winning most of the games. Over the last three seasons of the rivalry, the ABA steadily pulled ahead: 15-10 (in 1973), 16-7 (in 1974), and 31-17 (in 1975). The ABA won the overall interleague rivalry, 79 games to 76.

ABA vs. NBA exhibition games were always intense, due to the bad blood between the leagues. Ultra-competitive superstars like Rick Barry (Nets and Warriors), Dave Cowens (Celtics), and Charlie Scott (Squires, Suns and Celtics) were thrown out of interleague games with multiple technical fouls (see details below). Coaches like Larry Brown (Cougars and Nuggets) and Tommy Heinsohn (Celtics) often ended up listening to interleague games in the locker room, after being ejected...."

NBA apologists can spin this information many, many ways but from 1973 to end of the ABA years, the ABA defeated the NBA head to head in games with "bad blood" between the 2 leagues at a rate of 63%.

The ABA won 63% of games between 1973-1975. 63% is 63%! If the NBA was truly the superior league, you would think at some point they would have said, "let's teach these guys a lesson", but no it was 63%!

63% is really a number that cannot be denied.

One more thing. There is no comparing the post-merger NBA to either the pre-merger NBA or pre-merger ABA. Of course, the post merger NBA was stronger than either of the 2 pre-merger leagues. Not only was the talent much stronger thanks to entire ABA teams joining and the ABA dispersal draft, but the new coaches from the ABA introduced many new concepts to the NBA game both on offense and defense. This is well documented.

[dankok8]

This is my first time back here on this board in a long time(I've been mostly on the 76ers SB site Liberty Ballers), and I couldn't help but notice this thread. Of course I can't resist to not join in the fray. Just a little bit maybe LOL.

The issue of how great Julius was seems to be directly linked to how good the ABA was at it's peak since Julius played in the ABA during it's peak years between 1973-1975. Let's take a look at an excerpt from the site, "Remember the ABA":

"However, in the later years of the rivalry, the tide began to turn. Buoyed by younger, better talent and (in many cases) the home court advantage, ABA teams began winning most of the games. Over the last three seasons of the rivalry, the ABA steadily pulled ahead: 15-10 (in 1973), 16-7 (in 1974), and 31-17 (in 1975). The ABA won the overall interleague rivalry, 79 games to 76.

ABA vs. NBA exhibition games were always intense, due to the bad blood between the leagues. Ultra-competitive superstars like Rick Barry (Nets and Warriors), Dave Cowens (Celtics), and Charlie Scott (Squires, Suns and Celtics) were thrown out of interleague games with multiple technical fouls (see details below). Coaches like Larry Brown (Cougars and Nuggets) and Tommy Heinsohn (Celtics) often ended up listening to interleague games in the locker room, after being ejected...."

NBA apologists can spin this information many, many ways but from 1973 to end of the ABA years, the ABA defeated the NBA head to head in games with "bad blood" between the 2 leagues at a rate of 63%.

The ABA won 63% of games between 1973-1975. 63% is 63%! If the NBA was truly the superior league, you would think at some point they would have said, "let's teach these guys a lesson", but no it was 63%!

63% is really a number that cannot be denied.

One more thing. There is no comparing the post-merger NBA to either the pre-merger NBA or pre-merger ABA. Of course, the post merger NBA was stronger than either of the 2 pre-merger leagues. Not only was the talent much stronger thanks to entire ABA teams joining and the ABA dispersal draft, but the new coaches from the ABA introduced many new concepts to the NBA game both on offense and defense. This is well documented.

They were exhibition games, they were almost always played in or around ABA cities (about 90% of the time), and ABA guys always got up for those games more than the NBA guys.

But the main thing is they were exhibition games. My Raptors a few years back had a 8-0 preseason run and then had a losing record in the regular season. Exhibition games have very little correlation to the quality of the team.

Besides without even looking up the roster specifics for all teams but from the 10 exhibition games that the Bucks played against the ABA while Kareem was on the team, Kareem only suited up for 8 of them. In the 13 exhibition games that the Celtics played against the ABA, Dave Cowens only suited up for 3 of them. Cowens only played for 3/13 of the Celtics games against the ABA and yet I've seen people here make conclusions based on that.

By the way I got my info from nbastats.net. NBA-ABA games are under Various Tournaments & Games near the bottom of the page. Just download the spreadsheet.

I wouldn't take anything away from those games to be honest.



If you look at the defensive quality of the two league, the depth of talent, and the level at which ABA guys played after the merger, there is no case to say that the ABA was anywhere close to as strong as the NBA.

[Marchesk]

He's probably a borderline top 25 player instead of a borderline top 15 player.

He isn't borderline top 15, he's borderline top 10, and the real reason he isn't considered top 10 is because he didn't play more recently. Same with Moses Malone. They both got somewhat overshadowed by Magic, Bird and then Michael. They were a little too early to the party.

I'm not really sure why Hakeem is ranked over them, other than he peaked in the 90s, and won titles when Jordan was retired.

[ShawkFactory]

Dr J Legacy is being Alpha AF and checking bird after he was talking too much shit

Meh...hitting a guy while he's being held because he's fvcking dominating you isn't really alpha.

[dankok8]

He isn't borderline top 15, he's borderline top 10, and the real reason he isn't considered top 10 is because he didn't play more recently. Same with Moses Malone. They both got somewhat overshadowed by Magic, Bird and then Michael. They were a little too early to the party.

I'm not really sure why Hakeem is ranked over them, other than he peaked in the 90s, and won titles when Jordan was retired.

How is Dr J top 10 in any way shape or form? The man has 1 MVP and one title as a second option and even in his peak in the NBA he was clearly below Bird and Lebron at their peaks. I think people give him credit for his ABA accomplishments which are worth way way less.

With Moses I can actually see an argument for him. He was a much more dominant force at his peak. Even for him though top 10 is a big push. I have Moses at #12.

[Dr.J4ever]

They were exhibition games, they were almost always played in or around ABA cities (about 90% of the time), and ABA guys always got up for those games more than the NBA guys.

But the main thing is they were exhibition games. My Raptors a few years back had a 8-0 preseason run and then had a losing record in the regular season. Exhibition games have very little correlation to the quality of the team.

Besides without even looking up the roster specifics for all teams but from the 10 exhibition games that the Bucks played against the ABA while Kareem was on the team, Kareem only suited up for 8 of them. In the 13 exhibition games that the Celtics played against the ABA, Dave Cowens only suited up for 3 of them. Cowens only played for 3/13 of the Celtics games against the ABA and yet I've seen people here make conclusions based on that.

By the way I got my info from nbastats.net. NBA-ABA games are under Various Tournaments & Games near the bottom of the page. Just download the spreadsheet.

I wouldn't take anything away from those games to be honest.



If you look at the defensive quality of the two league, the depth of talent, and the level at which ABA guys played after the merger, there is no case to say that the ABA was anywhere close to as strong as the NBA.

Okay, let's compare notes on that because I didn't see those games, but we do know from reputable eye witnesses that they were not regular pre-season games. There was a rivalry between the two leagues, and there was reputedly "bad blood" that even after the leagues merged, the NBA, in effect, fined the ABA teams that entered the NBA.

This makes complete sense, because even today when an NBA team goes to Europe, it's a little different, and you see starters playing in the 4th quarter because there are reputations to uphold and there is a rivalry. Now imagine 2 leagues competing for the same market. Below is a link that details all the games between the ABA and NBA. What I see are stars of both leagues scoring heavily and playing heavy minutes.

http://www.remembertheaba.com/abasta...hibitions.html

Also this :

"ABA vs. NBA exhibition games were always intense, due to the bad blood between the leagues. Ultra-competitive superstars like Rick Barry (Nets and Warriors), Dave Cowens (Celtics), and Charlie Scott (Squires, Suns and Celtics) were thrown out of interleague games with multiple technical fouls (see details below). Coaches like Larry Brown (Cougars and Nuggets) and Tommy Heinsohn (Celtics) often ended up listening to interleague games in the locker room, after being ejected...."

Check this out too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americ...ciation_merger

"In the summer before the 1971–72 season the ABA and NBA met in an interleague All Star Game. The NBA won a close game, 125–120.[17][18] In that same preseason, ABA and NBA teams began playing exhibition games against each other.[1][6] The first such exhibition was played on September 21, 1971 with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and the Milwaukee Bucks barely defeating the Dallas Chaparrals, 106–103.[6] Gradually, the ABA began to prove itself superior, going 15–10 against the NBA in 1973, 16–7 in 1974, and 31–17 in 1975. Overall, the ABA won more of these interleague games than the NBA did, and in every matchup of reigning champions from the two leagues, the ABA champion won, including in the final pre-merger season when the Kentucky Colonels defeated the Golden State Warriors.[19] Boston Globe sportswriter Bob Ryan said of the ABA-NBA exhibition games: "When those exhibition games began, the view in the NBA was, 'Now we'll show those guys.' But then you know what happened—the ABA teams won nearly as often as the NBA did .... Those NBA–ABA games were intense."[20] Longtime NBA coach Larry Brown said of the ABA vs. NBA games, "When some exhibition games were arranged in the 1970s to make some money and we (the ABA) beat them, the NBA said they weren't up for the games. Come on. When I coached Carolina, we played the Knicks after they won a championship. I looked at their guys shooting around and I looked at my guys and I didn't want my players to take off their warm-ups because they looked so scrawny next to the Knicks—and we went out and beat New York. We also played the Celtics a couple of times and beat them. (Celtics coach) Tommy Heinsohn would say that he wasn't playing to win, but I'd check the box score and see that Tommy played his regulars 35 to 40 minutes, so what does that tell you?"[21]

Interest in ABA vs. NBA play extended beyond the two leagues' management. In 1976, CBS sought to establish a postseason playoff between the ABA and NBA, and to win the rights to broadcast those games.[22]"

Also this:

"Sportswriter Bob Ryan: "When writers such as Jim O'Brien and Peter Vescey wrote that the two leagues were very close, that some ABA teams were among the top five of all pro basketball teams, I thought they had no objectivity and that they were too close to the teams they were writing about to really understand pro basketball. Then came the merger, and Denver and San Antonio won division titles. What could I say? Guys like Jim O'Brien were right."[95]

Again, I didn't see those years, but i believe there is substantial evidence that by the time the two leagues merged, there was parity between the 2 leagues. That much is clear to me.

And had there been an NBA vs ABA Finals series, the ABA champ could have beaten the NBA champ somewhere between 1974-1976. Remember the AFL and Joe Namath?