#1 NBA Playoff Series Performance Of All-Time

[BoutPractice]

Deuce Bigalow > The 2000 Finals would be my vote. Hard to argue with 38 and 16, or whatever it was.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Okay, I'll stick with it then.

I think it's difficult to get a lot of voters in these threads while games are still going on, maybe you should bump it after the Finals? Up to you of course...

I'll leave this up for a while I guess and maybe it will pick up.

But do you know where I can find rebounding numbers for the 62 NBA Finals and 67 EDF? I tried bball reference but they only have points and webuns doesn't have a box score at all.

[fpliii]

I'll leave this up for a while I guess and maybe it will pick up.

But do you know where I can find rebounding numbers for the 62 NBA Finals and 67 EDF? I tried bball reference but they only have points and webuns doesn't have a box score at all.

Complete box scores for each game are hard to find, but for Russell and Wilt in particular I think we have all the rebounding numbers for those series on our site:

http://nbastats.net/01NBA/07playerlogs/Russell.xls

http://nbastats.net/01NBA/07playerlogs/Chamberlain.xls

[Deuce Bigalow]

Complete box scores for each game are hard to find, but for Russell and Wilt in particular I think we have all the rebounding numbers for those series on our site:

http://nbastats.net/01NBA/07playerlogs/Russell.xls

http://nbastats.net/01NBA/07playerlogs/Chamberlain.xls

Yeah I want to find the rebounding % of each and compare to Shaq.

[Deuce Bigalow]

65 Finals
BOS 316
LAL 291
Russell 125
Total rebounds 607

125/607 = 20.59%

67 Finals
PHI 425
SF 436
Wilt 171
Total rebounds 861

171/861 = 19.86%

00 Finals
LAL 248
IND 247
Shaq 100
Total rebounds 495

100/495 = 20.20%

Shaq

[LAZERUSS]

65 Finals
BOS 316
LAL 291
Russell 125
Total rebounds 607

125/607 = 20.59%

67 Finals
PHI 425
SF 436
Wilt 171
Total rebounds 861

171/861 = 19.86%

00 Finals
LAL 248
IND 247
Shaq 100
Total rebounds 495

100/495 = 20.20%

Shaq

'67 ECF's

Game 1
Total Rebounds= 120
Wilt 32
Russell 15

Game 2
Total Rebounds= 139
Wilt 29
Russell 24

Game 3
Total Rebounds= 134
Wilt 41
Russell 29

Game 4
Total Rebounds= 122
Wilt 22
Russell 28

Game 5
Total Rebounds= 128
Wilt 36
Russell 21

Total Rebounds= 643
Russell 117
Wilt 160

Russell 18.19%
Wilt 24.88%

Shaq vs Smits
Wilt vs Russell

Wilt

[Deuce Bigalow]

'67 ECF's

Game 1
Total Rebounds= 120
Wilt 32
Russell 15

Game 2
Total Rebounds= 139
Wilt 29
Russell 24

Game 3
Total Rebounds= 134
Wilt 41
Russell 29

Game 4
Total Rebounds= 122
Wilt 22
Russell 28

Game 5
Total Rebounds= 128
Wilt 36
Russell 21

Total Rebounds= 643
Russell 117
Wilt 160

Russell 18.19%
Wilt 24.88%

Shaq vs Smits
Wilt vs Russell

Wilt

Smits 7'4"
Russell 6'9"

[LAZERUSS]

Smits 7'4"
Russell 6'9"

The 6-7 Ben Wallace easily outrebounded Shaq in the '04 Finals.

BTW, Russell averaged 24.9 rpg in his post-season career.
Smits was at 5.2 rpg.

Furthermore, Russell was 6-10, with a 7-4 wingspan and world-class leaping ability, while Smits was no more than 7-2.

[LAZERUSS]

1962 Bill Russells numbers per 100 possessions and 40 minutes
11.2 ppg, 13.9 rpg, 2.7 apg in 100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

1962 Wilt Chamberlain numbers per 100 possessions and 40 minutes
27.7 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 1.3 apg in 100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

2000 Shaq numbers per 100 possessions and 40 minutes
31.8 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 4.1 apg in 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg.

Russell is a glorified Ben Wallace. There wasn't one aspect of the game he was significantly better at than Ben Wallace other than "winning" something more dependant on teammates than ones self. Mind as well put robert horry in your top ten all-time.

Shaq is the GOAT bigman.

Let's blow this nonsense into the water shall we...

Although this topic involves speculation, the OP is using flawed information. Instead, let's sue actual comparative statistical information.

The starting baseline numbers of relevance should be 118.8 ppg, 108 FGA/game, 37 FTA/game, 61 rpg, and the always overlooked stat of .426 eFG%. Those were the league averages in Wilt's historic '62 season. And, no, his personal team averages should not be used. Wilt took his team, on his back, and drove them to their numbers...in that season. He was generally a "catch-and-shoot" shooter, unlike MJ and Kobe, players who would dribble for several seconds in orer to get their shots.

Also, keep in mind that Wilt's numbers were achieved playing nearly very minute of every game. Why is that important? Because the OP is basing his evaluations on a 40 mpg basis. Think about just how unfair that is to a player who played every minute of every game, in a season in which he also played a ton of back-to-back games, including separate stretches of six, three-in-a-rows; three, four-in-a-rows; and even another separate stretch of, five games in five days.

Does anyone in their right mind believe that a Shaq, in 2000, who played a career high 40 mpg, would have continued to play at the same levels, playing 48 mpg? Would his rebounds per game have gone from 13.6 rpg in 40 mpg, to a projected 16.3 rpg playing 48 mpg? Would he have continued to shoot .574 from the field, playing an exhausting 48 mpg? And doing so in a schedule of 20 or so back-to-back games? Keep in mind that Shaq's playoff numbers, with one days rest, were considerly less than when he had two. Meanwhile, Wilt was playing in an era of playoff series with not only back-to-back games, but with even three-in-a-row.

And given Chamberlain's history of playing 45.8 mpg over his entire career, and then an unfathomable 47.2 mpg over the course of his 160 post-season games, or that his worst season was "only" 42.3 mpg (on a Laker team that went 69-13 and on their games by NBA record margins), or that in his last season, at age 36, he was playing 43.2 mpg...there would have been no era in which he would only b playing 40 mpg. I suspect that a prime Chamberlain would have led the league just like he did nearly ever season...so that would mean at least 42-43- an even 44 mpg (jst take a look at the league leaders year-after-year.) So, even in Shaq's 2000 season, in which he played that career high 40 mpg, Michael Finley was leading the leaue at 42.2 mpg.

So then, the reverse has to also be taken into account...that Wilt's efficiencies wold surely rise only playing a hypothetical 40 mpg. Would Wilt's rebound rate of 25.7 rpg, at 48.5 mpg, have been a straight drop to 21.4 rpg? Or would his rebounding efficiency have risen somewhat to counter the drop? And if so, how much? Same with his FG%. Surely his .506 FG% would have been considerably higher playing less minutes in a season which had the most demandin schedule in NB history.

Let's begin. Since I mentioned Shaq's 2000 season, we'll start there.

Once again here were Shaq's numbers. 40 mpg, 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, and on .574 shooting. In that '99-00 season, the NBA averaged 97.5 ppg, 43 rpg, and had an eFG% of .478. And, the average team took 82 FGAs per game, and 25 FTAs per game.

In Wilt's '61-62 season, Chamberlain averaged 39.5 FGAs per game, in a league that averaged 108 FGA, and he averaged 17 FTAs per game, in a league that shot 37 FTAs per team on average. He shot .506 from the field (in a league that had an eFG% of .426...more on that later), and shot .613 from the line.

Here we go...reduce Wilt's FGAs down to 99-00 levels (82/108 x 39.5), and he would have averaged an even 30 FGAs per game. Multiply his .506 FG% by that 30 FGA, and he would have averaged 15.2 FGM per game, or 30.4 ppg from the field. Reduce his 17 FTAs down to '99-00 levels, (37/25 x 17) and he would have taken 11.4 FTA per game. Since he shot .613 from the line that season, he woul have made an even 7 FT's per game. 30.4 + 7 = 37.4 ppg.

Multiply that 37.4 ppg by .825 (40/48.5), and he would have averaged 30.9 ppg in 2000, playing 40 mpg.

But wait...we forgot something. Wilt's '62 NBA ony had an eFG% of .426, while Shaq's '00 had an eFG of .478. So what you ask? If we are going to hypothetically reduce Wilt's '62 season numbers down to '00 levels, we also have to raise the FG%'s to equalize the conditions. Why? In the 99-00 season, the average NBA team averaged 97.5 ppg. If we don't equalize the FG%'s, then the average team from '61-62 will only average 32.3 made FGAs per game, or 64.6 ppg on FGAs. Then factor in that they would only average 18 ppg on their 25 FTAs (.727), ...for a total of 84.6 ppg...or over 13 ppg less than the average team in 2000.

How do we equalize it again? Raise the league FG% to an adjusted .478. Suddenly, in '62, the average team would be making 39.2 FGM per game, or 78.4 ppg. Add the 18 ppg that they did from the line, and then the average team in '62 would be scoring 96.4 ppg. By the way, the reason it is not equal has a considerable amount to do with Wilt's FT shooting. Take a look at the NBA's FT% before Wilt arrived. In the 58-59 season, the NBA shot .756 from the line (in 2000 it was .755.) Furthermore, in the season after Wilt retired, '73-74, the NBA shot .771.

What does all of that have to do with Wilt's scoring average in '99-00? Once again, reducing his FGAs down to '00 levels, he would have taken 30 FGAs per game. But, instead of making 15.2 FGs per game (based on his .506 FG%), he would make an adjusted 17.1 FGs per game (.478/.426, x .506) on an adjusted FG% of .568. 17.1 x2 = 34.2 ppg, + 7 ppg from the line, or 41.2 ppg. Reduce 41.2 ppg by playing 40 mpg, instead of 48.5 mpg, and he would have averaged an even 34.0 ppg (on .568 shooting.)

Of course, you could do this much easily. The average NBA team averaged 118.8 ppg in '62, and 97.5 ppg in '00. Divide 97.5 by 118.8, and you get .821. Multiply 50.4 ppg by .821, and you have 41.4 ppg. Multiply 41.4 by .825 and Wilt's scoring average, in 40 mpg, would have been 34.2 ppg.

How about rebounding? In the 61-62 season, the NBA averaged about 61 rpg per team (after adjusting for team rebounds.) In Shaq's '99-00 season, it was at 43 rpg. This is relatively easy. 43/61 = .705. Multiply Wilt's 25.7 rpg times .705, and it omes out atw18.1 rpg. Multiply 18.1 times .825, and it becomes an adjusted 14.9 rpg, which would have led the league(and here again, that is a Wilt only playing 40 mpg.)


You can the above in any of the OP's scenarios. How about MJ's '86-87 season?

88 FGA, 30.5 FTA, 44 rpg, and on an eFG% of .488.

Chamberlain's numbers would then be, 32.2 FGAs, and 14 FTAs per game. His FG% would have risen to .580 (488/426 x 506), or 18.7 FGM per game, or 37.4 ppg. And he woud have made 8.6 FTs per game (14 x .613), or a total of 46 ppg. Multiply 46 x .825, and he woud have averaged 38 ppg...playing the same mpg as MJ (37.1 ppg on 40 mpg.)

And he would have averaged 18.5 rpg playing 48 mpg (25.7 rpg x .721), or 15.3 rpg...playing 40 mpg.

So, to recap, Wilt, in 86-87, would have averaged 38 ppg, on .580 shooting, and 15.3 rpg...all while only playing 40 mpg.

Once again, though, the above numbers don't take into account the extra efficiency "boost" that a Chamberlain, only playing 40 mpg, instead of 48.5 mpg, would have surely received.

Go ahead...use those formulas for any of the OP's listings. Wilt's 61-62 season stands as the greatest scoring season of all-time.

[Deuce Bigalow]

The 6-7 Ben Wallace easily outrebounded Shaq in the '04 Finals.

BTW, Russell averaged 24.9 rpg in his post-season career.
Smits was at 5.2 rpg.

Furthermore, Russell was 6-10, with a 7-4 wingspan and world-class leaping ability, while Smits was no more than 7-2.

RPG in that era is very misleading as the total rebounding % shows a more accurate indicator of true rebounding strengths. For example, the 67 and 00 Finals were both 6 game series, in the 67 Finals a total of 861 rebounds were available, only 495 rebounds were available in 00. Can you get it yet? Bbbbut bbut but how many players have 27 rebound games?

[LAZERUSS]

RPG in that era is very misleading as the total rebounding % shows a more accurate indicator of true rebounding strengths. For example, the 67 and 00 Finals were both 6 game series, in the 67 Finals a total of 861 rebounds were available, only 495 rebounds were available in 00. Can you get it yet? Bbbbut bbut but how many players have 27 rebound games?

Smits had a career post season reb% of 12.1.
Not sure what Russell's was, but I would bet my house it was more than 12.1.

Oh, and how about the 7-0 270 lb Tom Boerwinkle? In 35 career playoff games (and after the '70 season) he had a post-season % of 21.9% Yet, in the seven game 72-73 playoffs and against Wilt...not only did Chamberlain outrebound him, 172-9 in that series, but Boerwinkle's reb% was at 13.5%. Here again, I am not sure what Wilt's came out to, but he averaged 24.6 rpg in that series (and at age 36, and in his LAST season)...so it was probably considerably above 20%.

Of course, you can also measure this...Wilt averaged 22.5 rpg in 17 post-season games in that 72-73 season...in an NBA that averaged 50.6 per team. In this year's post-season, the NBA is averaging 39.3 rpg per team. So, reduce Chamberlain's rebounds down to 2013 post-season levels, and he would be averaging 17.4 rpg! All at age 36, and well past his prime.

[LAZERUSS]

WE all know that Russell was considered the best defender of all time.. Where are the defensive stats for this series? Are there are setting picks at the top of the key for teammate stats? Are there any outlet passing stats here?

Stats only tell part of the story..We know Wilt in scorin and rebounding had better stats then Russell as a player, we also know that players at the time felt Russell was the more valuable player to a team..

Really? Even if I were to agree, it certainly would not have been by some kind of wide margin.

They two played in the NBA together for 10 seasons. And in that span, they each won four MVPs. Furthermore, while Wilt didn't win the MVP award in '64, and even though he probably deserved it, he did finish ahead of Russell. And Russell beating Wilt out for the MVP in '62 was perhaps the most questionable MVP voting ever.

Those that argue that players somehow know more than the media just need to look at how poorly Wilt was treated in his non-MVP seasons. Russell received more votes than Wilt in the '69 season. Why? Chamberlain led LA to a better seasonal record (and West missed 20 games BTW.) He also led the Lakers to a 4-2 seasonal record against Boston. And h2h, he pounded Russell in those six games. In fact, h2h, Chamberlain easily outplayed Reed and Unseld, both of whom were voted ahead of Wilt. And in Reed's case, Wilt's Lakers had a better seasonal record (55-27 to 54-28), and dominated NY h2h, 5-1.

Then there was his '63 season, when he finished seventh, and behind players like Johnny Kerr, whom he outscored h2h by a 43-19 ppg margin (including games in which he outscored him by margins of 61-20 and 70-14.) And rookie Terry Dischinger, playing on a 25-55 team, had more first place votes.

And if Russell won the award over Chamberlain in '62, then how did Wilt not win the award over Kareem in '72?

And even in the years in which Chamberlain won the MVP, the voting was questionable. How did he not win a unanimous MVP in '67? He was clearly blowing the best centers away h2h in the mid-60's, and while he won three MVPs in a row, it was laughable that he was not winning them by near unanimous margins.

Once again, if Russell were indeed considered the more valuable player in their careers, it was not by much. I don't have a problem with those that do, but let's not act like it was by some huge margin.

[LAZERUSS]

RPG in that era is very misleading as the total rebounding % shows a more accurate indicator of true rebounding strengths. For example, the 67 and 00 Finals were both 6 game series, in the 67 Finals a total of 861 rebounds were available, only 495 rebounds were available in 00. Can you get it yet? Bbbbut bbut but how many players have 27 rebound games?

BTW, I count Chamberlain with 190 career games of 30+ rebounds, including 15 of 40+. Even adjusting for the "pace" differentials (and keep in mind that the "pace" of the NBA declined almost every year in Wilt's career after '62)...that means that Wilt would have had some 190 games of 20+ in the current NBA. And once again, he had 15 games of 40+, including one in which he outrebounded Russell by a 55-19 margin. Those games would translate to to between 27-37 rebound games in today's NBA, and certainly several of them would be 30+.

But even aside from the numbers above, perhaps the most impressive point regarding Wilt's rebounding, was the fact that he was seldom outrebounded in any of his 1200 career games (including the post-season.) And we know that he not only was never outrebounded in any of his 29 post-season series, he had many in which he just murdered his opposing centers. And keep in mind that he faced Bellamy in 10 post-season games, Lucas in 18 (roughly 10 as a center), a prime Kareem in 11, Reed in 17, Thurmond in 17, and Russell in 49.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Smits had a career post season reb% of 12.1.
Not sure what Russell's was, but I would bet my house it was more than 12.1.

Oh, and how about the 7-0 270 lb Tom Boerwinkle? In 35 career playoff games (and after the '70 season) he had a post-season % of 21.9% Yet, in the seven game 72-73 playoffs and against Wilt...not only did Chamberlain outrebound him, 172-9 in that series, but Boerwinkle's reb% was at 13.5%. Here again, I am not sure what Wilt's came out to, but he averaged 24.6 rpg in that series (and at age 36, and in his LAST season)...so it was probably considerably above 20%.

Of course, you can also measure this...Wilt averaged 22.5 rpg in 17 post-season games in that 72-73 season...in an NBA that averaged 50.6 per team. In this year's post-season, the NBA is averaging 39.3 rpg per team. So, reduce Chamberlain's rebounds down to 2013 post-season levels, and he would be averaging 17.4 rpg! All at age 36, and well past his prime.

How did you calculate that 50.6 rpg average per team?

[LAZERUSS]

How did you calculate that 50.6 rpg average per team?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../NBA_1973.html



Actually I was incorrect regarding 2013....it is 39.8 rpg per team in today's NBA.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../NBA_2013.html

So Wilt would be around 17.5 rpg.