[Prime] Duncan vs [Prime] Kobe

[MMM]

Timmy, two-way superstar bigs are always more valuable than guards, if talent level is comparable.

Exactly, having a Big that is elite on both sides of the court is rare especially in the this era of the NBA. Additionally it is much easier to build a championship team around an elite big than it is a wing player. A team will have more margin of error if it took Duncan over Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

Okay, but if you stuck Kobe in his best years with Shaq, he'd win way more then 3 too. Shaq and Kobe from 03-10 would win just as much as Bird and Duncan from 99-07 (or whatever years you want to use for either of them) if you give them an equally talented team compared to the competition. Your premise just seems to be that Kobe only won three with Shaq because that's just how good he was. He wasn't the same player from 97-00 and in 03 he didn't have a chance or really 04 too because Shaq wasn't the same player and his team fell apart in the playoffs.

No. I don't agree with that. I don't think Kobe could have played with him in his prime and succeeded. I think they break up even sooner if Kobe was full on in his prime.

Plenty of evidence for it.

And it happened. No need to play hypothetical.

[Doctor Rivers]

Let's play your game.

As for Lakers-Spurs series;
1999 - Duncan (Spurs won the series because they were the better team.)
2001 - Kobe (Lakers won the series because they were the better team. Also D. Anderson should be Kobe's main matchup but he was injured. Kobe went up against old perimeter players.)
2002 - Duncan (Lakers won the series because they were the better team.)
2003 - Duncan (What Duncan did was exceptional.)
2004 - Almost a tie, slightly Kobe. (Lakers won the series because they were the better team.)
2008 - Kobe (Lakers won the series because they were the better team.)

Duncan dominated 2003 Spurs-Lakers series like Kobe dominated in 2008. But Duncan won with the worse team.

Just a point of contention here, but Kobe would have *hit on Anderson as well in 2001. He never had any trouble with him throughout their careers:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=anderde01

[miles berg]

Duncan for sure, he is already one of the most underrated players in NBA history.

[Odinn]

Just a point of contention here, but Kobe would have *hit on Anderson as well in 2001. He never had any trouble with him throughout their careers:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=anderde01

Oh, I have no objection to that. But like I said; Spurs' perimeter players were OLD. 35 year old Avery Johnson, 37 year old Terry Porter, 34 year old Danny Ferry and 25 year old Antonio Daniels. Derek Anderson was better than all of these players in 2001. I'm not exactly saying Kobe wouldn't dominate like that if D. Anderson was there. With or without Anderson, there was no way to make it to the finals for the Spurs. But Anderson can make the game a little harder for Kobe.

[LA_Showtime]

I know people like to say that Kobe and Shaq broke up because they couldn't play together but I really think that's overblown. They won 3 championships and were a Karl Malone injury away from 4. Yeah, they didn't like each other, but it's not like it affected their individual games. Kobe's self destruction against Detroit in the '04 Finals had more to do with the fatigue from the rape trial than anything.

[Coffee Black]

Hold on, did I just read that the spurs teams from last 14 years were not well constructed teams? They are probably the best coached and put together teams. Definitely better than the Lakers teams who started Samaki Walker or Devean George and main back up big men were Stanislav Medvedenko and Mark Madsen. I remember watching that 2003 Spurs team. Every player in the rotation right down to Kevin Willis were playing well.
It's like you look at Manu's numbers and say he was not that good in 2003. Are you kidding me? That was like his coming out party. The effect he had on games while showing off his tenacity and creativity was great. That guy would just go off in stretches of games when nobody else was.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Hold on, did I just read that the spurs teams from last 14 years were not well constructed teams? They are probably the best coached and put together teams. Definitely better than the Lakers teams who started Samaki Walker or Devean George and main back up big men were Stanislav Medvedenko and Mark Madsen. I remember watching that 2003 Spurs team. Every player in the rotation right down to Kevin Willis were playing well.

Yeah on paper those Spurs teams didn't have stars outside of Duncan but the Spurs have never been built on star power. They've had quality role players and guys who could step up when needed (before Tony and Manu developed).

[obonpaxis]

I wish someone would show Duncan this thread. He'd read 4 or 5 posts, get bored, and then go back to over to his Star Trek board.

[StateOfMind12]

I would rather have Prime Duncan on my team over Prime Kobe like many people have already said, you always take the big first.



I do think prime and peak Duncan was somewhat overrated though. I am talking about his '03 season that everybody is always amazed about. Now don't get me wrong, Duncan's '03 season was pretty amazing. However, I don't think it was comparable or as amazing as what Hakeem did in '94 or as amazing as many people say it was.



In the '03 playoffs, a lot of the West teams got banged up and suffered some key injuries.


-Sacramento Kings - They supposedly made some great moves during the off-season. The Kings lost to the Lakers in 7 in the WCF last season in '02. The moves the Kings made in the off-season were suppose to put them over the top and above the Lakers.

What happened? Chris Webber suffered a serious injury in the '03 playoffs against the Mavericks and because of that the Kings lost a good shot at going deep in the playoffs and winning it. The Mavericks-Kings series was tied 1-1 when Webber got hurt. I hate Chris Webber and I do think he is overrated, but how often do you lose your best player and continue to win a series and go deep in the playoffs?

The Spurs didn't play the Kings in the '03 playoffs but the Mavericks were the ones that eliminated them and they did it in 7. This just goes to show you how deep and great of a team the Kings were in general, with or without C-Webb.

-Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe Bryant injured his shoulder in 2003 first round against the T-Wolves and despite that he played a great series against Minnesota. Kobe was pretty much known and is pretty much known for being the Spurs killer but because of the shoulder injury he suffered against the Wolves he wasn't able to dominate them as he commonly would.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...ant_lakers_ap/

Bryant was injured on April 22 during a first-round playoff game against the Minnesota Timberwolves.

The injury was diagnosed as a tear in the tissue around the shoulder socket.

He said that he suffered the injury when he went to the rim for a dunk and jammed his shoulder.

"It affected me a lot," he said. "The playoffs, you just have to play through it."

Kobe wasn't the only injured player on the Lakers either. Rick Fox didn't play in the Spurs series at all although I did not recall his injury but he stopped playing after Game 4 in the 1st round against the T-Wolves. I assume that Fox got hurt in that Game 4 because his stats were empty in that game.

Also, IIRC, Fox's backup, Devean George was also somewhat injured and playing through some pain in the '03 playoffs as well.

So the Lakers had arguably their best player in Kobe Bryant playing through a shoulder injury that affected his game severely, lost their starting small forward in Rick Fox, and their backup SF Devean George was playing through some pain.

There was a reason why the Wolves were up 2-1 against the Lakers in the 1st round in the '03 playoffs and the reason was far from the T-Wolves being the more talented team.

-Dallas Mavericks - People need to remember that Dirk sat out in Game 4, 5, and 6 in the WCF against the Spurs. Dirk suffered a sprained knee in Game 3 and was out for the entire series. The Mavericks lost their best player for the rest of the series. The series was 1-2 after Game 3 so you could argue that the Spurs would have won that series anyways but now we would never know.


Duncan's '03 run was great but he had a lot of breaks and it is not comparable to what Hakeem did in '94. The '02-'03 season was honestly just an odd year in general.

[Odinn]

-Dallas Mavericks - People need to remember that Dirk sat out in Game 4, 5, and 6 in the WCF against the Spurs. Dirk suffered a sprained knee in Game 3 and was out for the entire series. The Mavericks lost their best player for the rest of the series. The series was 1-2 after Game 3 so you could argue that the Spurs would have won that series anyways but now we would never know.

Other parts maybe but clearly NO to this. The Spurs were up 2-1 while Nowitzki healthy and Duncan outperformed Nowitzkli in those 3 games. It wasn't like Dirk didn't got outplayed by Duncan.

1st game; Dirk 38/15/2/1/1 on 52.6% - Tim 40/15/7/1/1 on 70.0%
2nd game; Dirk 23/10/2/2/0 on 42.1% - Tim 32/15/5/0/3 on 52.4%
3rd game; Dirk 15/9/2/1/1 on 35.0% - Tim 34/24/6/2/6 on 63.2%