Rule Enforced Spacing vs. Shooting Encouraged Spacing

[3ball]

Illegal Defense Rules


2a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) [COLOR="Red"]for more than three seconds[/COLOR].

As the bolded red shows, previous era defenders could remain INDEFINITELY in the "pro" lane, or the outer partition of the paint - today's defenders can't do that - they have a max of 3 seconds..

For the inner part of the paint (college lane), weakside defenders can stay for up to 3 seconds, just like today's defenders.

2b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player [COLOR="Blue"]adjacent[/COLOR] to paint area).

[COLOR="darkRed"]2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is [COLOR="Blue"]adjacent[/COLOR] (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.[/COLOR]

Rule 2b is a legal paint-camping provision.

As you can see, defenders were allowed to stay in the paint "with no time limitation" if their man was in the paint already, or "adjacent" to the paint - "adjacent" is defined as when the offensive player is within 3 feet of either side of the paint, as denoted by hash marks on the baseline.. The hash marks are the only thing refs had to eyeball if an offensive player was "adjacent"/within 3 feet, or further than 3 feet/in violation, which is why defenders often camped in the paint while their man was all the way at the 3-point line (no enforcement).

The criteria needed to paint-camp (a defender's man being in the paint or within 3 feet of either side) was always fulfilled in previous eras due to the lack of 3-point shooting and spacing - coaches foolishly ran offenses that didn't shoot threes and positioned players close to the rim, which activated this legal-paint camping provision of Rule 2b.. The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book are [COLOR="Blue"]here[/COLOR], also shown at realgm here.

2c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.

[COLOR="Red"]Rule 2c is the same thing as today's flooding[/COLOR] - but flooding isn't an advantage for today's game.. Today's 3-pointers/spacing and the resulting further distance of help defenders makes offensive players more dangerous when they catch the ball, which necessitates extra tactics so the ballhandler isn't so secluded by the spacing - but the flooding tactic merely makes the concentration of defenders equivalent to an un-spaced court where help defenders were already in closer proximity.

Lack of spacing and closer proximity of help defenders made previous eras better-equipped to handle a player that has the ball without needing risky gambles like flooding, where big men come away from the rim to flood in a mismatch outside the paint.. Instead, the lack of 3-point shooting kept offensive players closer to the paint, which allowed defenders to paint-camp when their man was in the paint or within 3 feet of either side (see Rule 2b above).. Paint-camping is a more equitable way to defend the entire court, without necessitating the extra rotations and leaving guys wide open that flooding requires.

2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the [COLOR="Red"]free-throw line extended (upper defensive area)[/COLOR] for more than 2.9 seconds

2d. When an offensive player, with or without the ball, takes a position above the foul line, the defensive player may be no farther (toward the baseline) than the "[COLOR="Red"]middle defensive area[/COLOR]." Defensive player(s) may enter and re-enter the "lower defensive area" as many times as desired, so long as he does not exceed 2.9 seconds.

Rule [COLOR="Red"]2e[/COLOR] above shows that the "upper defensive area" is the area above the FT line extended... This means the "middle defensive area" includes the upper part of the paint.. Rule [COLOR="blue"]2d[/COLOR] refers to the "middle defensive area" - the rule allows defenders to stand in the upper part of the paint (middle defensive area) INDEFINITELY when their man is at college 3-point distance (the tip of the circle).

Otoh, today's defenders can never stay in the paint for longer than 3 seconds unless they're within "armslength".. So today's defender isn't allowed to stand in the upper part of the paint while their man is at the college 3-point line (tip of circle), since that's way out of armslength reach.. But previous era defenders COULD stand in the upper part of the paint while their man was at the tip of the circle, so they had more flexibility in this spot.

2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than [COLOR="Blue"]2.9 seconds[/COLOR]. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than [COLOR="Blue"]2.9 seconds[/COLOR].

This rule is the same as today's rule - defenders in today's era AND previous eras were allowed to sag off 3-point shooters to the edge of the paint, and also dip into the paint for up to 3 seconds (highlighted in blue above).

Man-to-man defenders have always been allowed to sag off their man and Rule 2e articulates that.. The only time in history when defenders weren't allowed to sag off their man is today's paint defenders, who must remain with "armslength" of their man to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area.. "Armslength" (about 3 feet) is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the current policy governing the most important area of the floor: the paint.

The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book found [COLOR="Blue"]here[/COLOR], also shown at realgm here
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[3ball]

Rule Enforced Spacing





[COLOR="Red"]The spacing above isn't provided by shooters because previous eras couldn't shoot 3's - the spacing is provided by the Illegal defense rules. We see the weakside defenders sagging off a little, playing a phantom zone, but it really has minimal effect on Robinson
[/COLOR]

Rules-enforced spacing didn't exist because man-to-man defenders have always been allowed to sag off their man - it wasn't a "phantom zone" or whatever phrase you made up.. Didn't you think it was weird how EVERY play you saw showed defenders sagging off their man?.. That shows how ignorant today's fan has become.

[COLOR="darkred"]The reality is that the 4 gifs you posted showed defenders positioned exactly how they would be today against 3-point shooters[/COLOR] - defenders in the gifs were sagging off to the edge of the paint, and defenders in both eras have the right to dip into the paint for up to 3 seconds, as stipulated in Rule 2e of the Illegal Defense Guidelines:

2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than [COLOR="Blue"]2.9 seconds[/COLOR]. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than [COLOR="Blue"]2.9 seconds[/COLOR].

The only time in history when defenders weren't allowed to sag off their man is today's paint defenders, who must remain with "armslength" of their man to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area.. "Armslength" (about 3 feet) is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the current policy governing the most important area of the floor: the paint.

How were these teams able to be such efficient offenses without having shooters to spread the half court?

[COLOR="Blue"]Similar to how today's game has elite 3-point shooting, players in previous eras had far better midrange efficiency, which is what you need when the court isn't spaced.[/COLOR]

But you can't judge offensive or defensive efficiency based on ORtg/DRtg, because those stats are affected by style of play.. Look at defensive rating in the 70's - it was WAY lower than today's era, so are you going to give credit to them for better defense?... Of course not... The paint was smaller back then before they made it bigger, so that lowered ratings.

Case in point: 2-pointers have higher offensive rebounding rate than 3-pointers - the higher proportion of 2-pointers taken in previous eras gave those eras higher offensive rebounding rates and subsequently higher ORtg/DRtg.. This is a well-known statistical fact.. It's just the way the stat is calculated - higher oreb rate increases ORtg and corresponding DRtg.. So again, team or league-wide offensive/defensive ratings can't be used to grade defense across eras.

[COLOR="black"]How were these teams able to be such efficient offenses [COLOR="red"]without having shooters to spread the half court[/COLOR]?[/COLOR]

Btw, it's exactly like you said in the bolded red above - teams DIDN'T spread the floor in the halfcourt - teams isolated like any era does, but they rarely did the clearouts you posted with 3-4 guys behind the 3-point line.. Having 3-4 non-shooters behind the line in a gimmick fashion was considered weird back then too.. In today's game, clearouts aren't a gimmick or weird, because the guys behind the line are actual 3-point shooters that force the defense into a real decision of whether to guard closely or risk getting burnt by sagging off.

The sheer rarity of clearouts in previous eras makes it obvious your "rules-enforced" spacing theory isn't valid, since it would only be valid those rare times a clearout was ran.. Today's game runs that play far more often - we saw Lebron get those clearouts 10+ times per game in the Finals.. But regardless - both eras defend those plays the exact same way, with the defenders sagging off shooters to the edge of the paint and the right to sag into the paint for up to 3 seconds.


[quote=GIF REACTION]


1981-82

[ralph_i_el]

Horse shit. What offensive ability did Tyson Chandler have when the Mavs won?

Pick and roll finishing. Draws defenders into the paint away from shooters.

[3ball]

Pick and roll finishing. Draws defenders into the paint away from shooters.

That's called play-finishing and it's a minimum requirement for any NBA big.

When a guard dumps it to big man for an open, in-stride finish - that's play-finishing and it's a minimum requirement of bigs with zero offensive ability like george murehean and Chandler alike.

Chandler can't create his own shot, playmake for others, or even hit a stand-still jumper like Ibaka.

[sdot_thadon]

That's called play-finishing and it's a minimum requirement for any NBA big.

When a guard dumps it to big man for an open, in-stride finish - that's play-finishing and it's a minimum requirement of bigs with zero offensive ability like george murehean and Chandler alike.

Chandler can't create his own shot, playmake for others, or even hit a stand-still jumper like Ibaka.

Actually it's not. There are and have been guys in the league who fail at this so called minimum requirement.

[Sarcastic]

Actually it's not. There are and have been guys in the league who fail at this so called minimum requirement.

More now than ever.

[3ball]

Actually it's not. There are and have been guys in the league who fail at this so called minimum requirement.

there will always be those that fail at the minimum requirement - it's still a minimum requirement and doesn't represent offensive ability the way people discuss and evaluate offensive ability in the NBA.

You should read this article and maybe get checked out - it applies to you perfectly...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ings-literally

[ShawkFactory]

5 posts in a row for 3ball. Rare

[warriorfan]

there will always be those that fail at the minimum requirement - it's still a minimum requirement and doesn't represent offensive ability the way people discuss and evaluate offensive ability in the NBA.

You should read this article and maybe get checked out - it applies to you perfectly...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ings-literally

[sdot_thadon]

there will always be those that fail at the minimum requirement - it's still a minimum requirement and doesn't represent offensive ability the way people discuss and evaluate offensive ability in the NBA.

You should read this article and maybe get checked out - it applies to you perfectly...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ings-literally

Great site, seems they've done a study on you.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ase-alcoholism

[Hey Yo]

Actually it's not. There are and have been guys in the league who fail at this so called minimum requirement.

See 2011 starter center Heat player, Joel Anthony.

That match-up made Chandler look like he knew what he was doing.

[sdot_thadon]

See 2011 starter center Heat player, Joel Anthony.

That match-up made Chandler look like he knew what he was doing.

That was exactly who came to mind 1st.

[3ball]

Stu Lantz just confirmed everything I said during the Laker game on NBA TV just now - literally a few minutes ago.

He said the defensive 3 seconds rule forces defenders to vacate the paint if they aren't within "armslength".. Defenders must hug their man and follow them around the massive 16 x 19 foot paint, or vacate the paint..

Forcing defenders to stay within "armslength" is the opposite of zone and the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder to shoulder.. Yet this strict policy is what currently governs defenders inside the most important area of the floor: the paint.

[sdot_thadon]

Stu Lantz just confirmed everything I said during the Laker game on NBA TV just now - literally a few minutes ago.

He said the defensive 3 seconds rule forces defenders to vacate the paint if they aren't within "armslength".. Defenders must hug their man and follow them around the massive 16 x 19 foot paint, or vacate the paint..

Forcing defenders to stay within "armslength" is the opposite of zone and the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder to shoulder.. Yet this strict policy is what currently governs defenders inside the most important area of the floor: the paint.

How about you confirm this
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ase-alcoholism

[QUOTE]
Fanatics, ideologues and absolutists are humanity

[DoctorP]

So having shooting is encouraged in this era. I have seen a mild return of the big man in these later years. Heat are ****ed. Memphis cant get over the hump with an elite FC.