Video PROOF LeBron James is overrated as f*ck

[andgar923]

I will concede he's an all time great player, but his game (skill set) is overrated. Overrated does not mean he's not good, overrated means that he's not as good as his stats or the praise indicate.

He is not in the same league as Bird, Magic or even MJ as a passer. He's not that great at setting up an offense (I think Kobe might be better)
He is horrible at moving without the ball.
He has footwork issues that cause him to lose his balance, get outta control, and jump awkwardly.
He takes too long to read and react.
He's passive by nature and this causes the offense he runs to suffer as a result.

This video will not end the debate, it isn't the end all. I think this only scratches the surface on what some of us have been stating for eons. I can probably do this for 90% of his games (no joke).

In this video I included 98% of the time he was on the floor offensively (I think I deleted 1 or 2 moments when he was on, but they weren't important.. A fast break I believe... Im new with this software). All of the clips are from one single game, not a compilation of a series.

I also did not know exactly what to expect. I had an idea of how he played but as I analyzed the video I kept noticing more and more flaws in his game, I noticed more open lanes.


I also selected this game because it was the most accessible. I plan on making a few more in the near future (I hope to get better at using this software... Give me a break ) My ultimate video will be a video that shows side by side every single possession between MJ and Bron, or Kobe and Bron, or Kobe and MJ. Every decision they make will be analyzed, because it is ultimately the decisions that they make that matter. What if Bron decided to cross left instead of right? What if he decided to take an extra dribble and post up Curry? What if he decided to cut to the hole and move without the ball instead of standing in a corner?

Too much rambling here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1OLwlN-ZWA

NOTE: Im still new at this software, so I didn't annotate or highlight certain things because I lost track of shit. But always keep in mind how the lanes are usually open. The lanes are wide open almost every possession, the players usually don't even have a foot inside the paint (it's usually nearby).

I like LeBron, but watching a game video and analyzing it is different than watching it live. You notice small flaws in his game that one wouldn't notice during a live game or highlight reel.

He lacks offensive moves, he has no footowork, no balance, but his size and athleticism are too much to handle at times.

[Trollsmasher]

meltdown

[aj1987]

I He is not in the same league as Bird, Magic or even MJ as a passer. He's not that great at setting up an offense (I think Kobe might be better)

You should literally NEVER talk about basketball ever again. In fact you should just stop watching it all together, because even casual fans aren't this retarded.

That video...tried watching it. Couldn't get past minute 2. Do you even know how basketball works?

[SouBeachTalents]

The meltdown is because of this thread

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=415784

No it isn't fakkit

[ShawkFactory]

I commend the analysis.

But I don't think anyone remotely reasonable really overrates his skillset.

It's about impacting the game for some, and his size and athleticism can give him a very similar, or ever greater, overall impact that someone far more 'skilled' in the sense that you're talking.

So if you're ranking players based solely on skill then you have a point. If you rate on overall impact on the game you may need to dig a little deeper.

And in the past year or so his off ball game has improved tremendously. Opportune cuts to the basket, hitting open jumpers, pick and roll, and overall allowing his teammates more space to operate...all much better. If you're talking 2010 Bron that argument holds more weight.

[feyki]

Everybody knows , he has poor off ball play and footwork . But this doesn't mean he's overrated . You did underrate his passing too . I think Bird was better passer too , but he's better passer than Kobe for sure . Comparing to Magic ? Only Stockton and Nash were better passer than Magic in history .

[andgar923]

You should literally NEVER talk about basketball ever again. In fact you should just stop watching it all together, because even casual fans aren't this retarded.

That video...tried watching it. Couldn't get past minute 2. Do you even know how basketball works?

Do YOU know how basketball works?

Setting up an offense isn't simply about being WILLING to pass, it's about getting the right players at the right location, finding angles to set them up, making passes that are in their comfort zone, waiting for the right time to pass the ball and not simply giving them the ball as soon as they're open or you get in trouble.

Setting up an offense requires proper clock management and the ability to create for yourself and others once the original set is defended properly.

Setting up an offense also isn't about making no-look fancy passes, behind the back lobs or needle thin between defenders passes.

Lebron isn't as great at clock management, he's not as great at getting players in the right spot, he's not as great at creating when the plays break down, he's not as good at timing, he's not as good at finding angles to properly feed the player, he's not as great as the players I mentioned and Im not so sure he's as good as Kobe either.

YES Bron is a more WILLING passer, but Kobe appears to be better at getting players into position when he is running plays. He's easily better at creating for himself or others. Some of the other aspects can be harder to argue for, but Kobe does have some key advantages over Bron when it comes to setting up an offense.

We can go back to Bron's days as a Heat player if you'd like, and you'll see how he had issues back then as well. Players were usually standing still out of position, poor shot clock management, there's a reason they called it 'LeBron Ball' because he's ball dominant and takes too long setting up an offense.

He's the floor captain so he should manage and tell people where to go and when to be there. Magic could be seen talking and pointing the entire game, Bird didn't waste much time in getting the offense running, and MJ created something out of nothing without wasting much time.

I dare you to argue what I mentioned, because we all know Bron is slow at organizing an offense, and there are several reasons why that is and I just listed some of them.

So again....do YOU know how basketball works?

[andgar923]

I commend the analysis.

But I don't think anyone remotely reasonable really overrates his skillset.

It's about impacting the game for some, and his size and athleticism can give him a very similar, or ever greater, overall impact that someone far more 'skilled' in the sense that you're talking.

So if you're ranking players based solely on skill then you have a point. If you rate on overall impact on the game you may need to dig a little deeper.

And in the past year or so his off ball game has improved tremendously. Opportune cuts to the basket, hitting open jumpers, pick and roll, and overall allowing his teammates more space to operate...all much better. If you're talking 2010 Bron that argument holds more weight.

I agree with your analysis on his impact.

I never downplayed his impact and why that is. I also think that rating a player simply based on 'skill' can be an issue.

But when we're dealing with the elite of the elite, and we're comparing stats and praising players for their stats and stating that player A is better than player B then I think it's fair to look at the entire picture. I feel it's fair to understand context.

I understand some will argue "Shaq has impact is he more skilled than Nash?" Well... For his size (and even then) Shaq was absolutely skilled. He could read the defense, move without the ball, pass as good as some point guards, set up an offense as good as some of the best point guards, could dribble, had different moves, great footwork etc.etc. His accomplishments did not come as a result of him simply being big, his impact is a direct result of elite skill. And Im very positive that the same can be said about the top 50 players.

But what Im doing is grading Bron on a curb.

Because we have to, if he's to be compared to his peers... The top 10 players of all time.

Naturally if I was to grade him on the same curb as Otis Thorpe things would be different. His grade would be significantly higher, but since we're comparing him to Kobe and such, his grade drops in some aspects. Im trying to find the balance between impact and skill I suppose.

I guess it depends on one's criteria and how much weight they add to the skill vs impact debate.

Having said all this, I still think he's top 15 or so all things factored. The stats are there, but some of the substance is lacking when compared to his peers.

[Cone]

can OP commit suicide?

please, and thanks.

[aj1987]

Setting up an offense isn't simply about being WILLING to pass, it's about getting the right players at the right location, finding angles to set them up, making passes that are in their comfort zone, waiting for the right time to pass the ball and not simply giving them the ball as soon as they're open or you get in trouble.

Exactly. LeBron does this better than anyone not named CP3 in the league.

Setting up an offense requires proper clock management and the ability to create for yourself and others once the original set is defended properly.

Did you miss last years Finals? LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

Setting up an offense also isn't about making no-look fancy passes, behind the back lobs or needle thin between defenders passes.

LeBron has probably only one of those per game.

Lebron isn't as great at clock management, he's not as great at getting players in the right spot, he's not as great at creating when the plays break down, he's not as good at timing, he's not as good at finding angles to properly feed the player, he's not as great as the players I mentioned and Im not so sure he's as good as Kobe either.

Holy [COLOR="Black"]f[/COLOR]uck. What are you even watching, dude? Are you sure that you're watching the same games as the rest of the world? You might be probably one of 3-4 people in the world, who thinks that Kobe is better than LeBron. Heck, when it comes to LeBron vs Bird, even Bird's biggest stan, ShaqIsGOAT, would admit that they're on the same tier as playmakers and passers. There's a reason as to why even the '09 and '10 teams were elite offensive teams with shitty offensive players.

YES Bron is a more WILLING passer, but Kobe appears to be better at getting players into position when he is running plays. He's easily better at creating for himself or others. Some of the other aspects can be harder to argue for, but Kobe does have some key advantages over Bron when it comes to setting up an offense.
We can go back to Bron's days as a Heat player if you'd like, and you'll see how he had issues back then as well. Players were usually standing still out of position, poor shot clock management, there's a reason they called it 'LeBron Ball' because he's ball dominant and takes too long setting up an offense.

Again, almost all of LeBron's teammates have some of their most efficient seasons WITH LeBron. We've seen that with Wade, Bosh, Irving, TT, Mo, etc.. LeBron gets them better shots. It's a FACT. It's also pretty much well known that LeBron doesn't really like a run and gun offense. He prefers slow paced low scoring games, compared to high paced high scoring games.

Also those Heat teams, #3, #2, #8, and #5 offenses. They were extremely efficient offensively.

I dare you to argue what I mentioned, because we all know Bron is slow at organizing an offense, and there are several reasons why that is and I just listed some of them.

Magic, MJ, and Bird had ATG low post and elite midrange players, coupled with a bunch of shooters as well. Almost all their teams had that. When was the last time LeBron played with an elite low post player? The times he has had good offensive weapons (and even when he didn't), he led teams to being among the best in the league.

So again....do YOU know how basketball works?

About a billion times better than you. Again, there's a reason as to why almost every coach, player (current and ex), analyst, etc. call LeBron one of the greatest playmakers and passers.

I still can't believe that you actually said Kobe's a better playmaker than LeBron. Holy [COLOR="Black"]f[/COLOR]uck!

[andgar923]

In all fairness, I will make a video on some of his better games.

On paper this game appeared to be a great game, but once you look closer it aint so sweet. But Im sure we can probably say the same about some of MJ, Kobe's games as well.

Point is

STATS CAN BE MISLEADING

My fav Kobe games are when he only scores 20 points, gets 7 assists but plays an overall beautiful game. I cringe at Kobe's scoring outbursts because they're usually ugly filled with many bad decisions which also expose some of his shortcomings.

I will try to get better using this software so I can make other vids. You guys like cats?

[andgar923]

Exactly. LeBron does this better than anyone not named CP3 in the league.


Did you miss last years Finals? LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.


LeBron has probably only one of those per game.


Holy [COLOR="Black"]f[/COLOR]uck. What are you even watching, dude? Are you sure that you're watching the same games as the rest of the world? You might be probably one of 3-4 people in the world, who thinks that Kobe is better than LeBron. Heck, when it comes to LeBron vs Bird, even Bird's biggest stan, ShaqIsGOAT, would admit that they're on the same tier as playmakers and passers. There's a reason as to why even the '09 and '10 teams were elite offensive teams with shitty offensive players.


Again, almost all of LeBron's teammates have some of their most efficient seasons WITH LeBron. We've seen that with Wade, Bosh, Irving, TT, Mo, etc.. LeBron gets them better shots. It's a FACT. It's also pretty much well known that LeBron doesn't really like a run and gun offense. He prefers slow paced low scoring games, compared to high paced high scoring games.

Also those Heat teams, #3, #2, #8, and #5 offenses. They were extremely efficient offensively.


Magic, MJ, and Bird had ATG low post and elite midrange players, coupled with a bunch of shooters as well. Almost all their teams had that. When was the last time LeBron played with an elite low post player? The times he has had good offensive weapons (and even when he didn't), he led teams to being among the best in the league.


About a billion times better than you. Again, there's a reason as to why almost every coach, player (current and ex), analyst, etc. call LeBron one of the greatest playmakers and passers.

I still can't believe that you actually said Kobe's a better playmaker than LeBron. Holy [COLOR="Black"]f[/COLOR]uck!

You clearly didn't watch the video and you've clearly never saw him play.

[NuggetsFan]

Do YOU know how basketball works?

Setting up an offense isn't simply about being WILLING to pass, it's about getting the right players at the right location, finding angles to set them up, making passes that are in their comfort zone, waiting for the right time to pass the ball and not simply giving them the ball as soon as they're open or you get in trouble.

Setting up an offense requires proper clock management and the ability to create for yourself and others once the original set is defended properly.

Setting up an offense also isn't about making no-look fancy passes, behind the back lobs or needle thin between defenders passes.

Lebron isn't as great at clock management, he's not as great at getting players in the right spot, he's not as great at creating when the plays break down, he's not as good at timing, he's not as good at finding angles to properly feed the player, he's not as great as the players I mentioned and Im not so sure he's as good as Kobe either.

YES Bron is a more WILLING passer, but Kobe appears to be better at getting players into position when he is running plays. He's easily better at creating for himself or others. Some of the other aspects can be harder to argue for, but Kobe does have some key advantages over Bron when it comes to setting up an offense.

We can go back to Bron's days as a Heat player if you'd like, and you'll see how he had issues back then as well. Players were usually standing still out of position, poor shot clock management, there's a reason they called it 'LeBron Ball' because he's ball dominant and takes too long setting up an offense.

He's the floor captain so he should manage and tell people where to go and when to be there. Magic could be seen talking and pointing the entire game, Bird didn't waste much time in getting the offense running, and MJ created something out of nothing without wasting much time.

I dare you to argue what I mentioned, because we all know Bron is slow at organizing an offense, and there are several reasons why that is and I just listed some of them.

So again....do YOU know how basketball works?

Every coach has a different offense, prefers to play at a different pace. Alot of what your saying is subjective and there's no right or wrong. Just different Clock management differs for everybody. LeBron because of a combination of his willing to pass, basketball IQ, lack of talent among teammates developed "LeBron ball" early in his career. He had alot of success with it so it tends to get used quite frequently.

I watched a few minutes of the video and there's a play where you type why doesn't he finish at the rim!?! he has Steph Curry or whatever on him. That's a designed play. A pretty popular one. Penetrate the lane, kick it to the corner, swing the ball and get an open look. K.Love got an amazing look from 3 because of LeBron's penetration and willingness to pass. Argue that the 3 ball is destroying the game, or you prefer play in than paint but saying that play was a mistake? that's a pretty simple play to read. Your wanting him to do things that he's never asked to do. He'll never move great without the ball because coaches, teammates etc. will always want the ball in his hands. He waits long in the post for his guys to move, someone to cut, or for him to eventually attack. When he catches the ball in the post it isn't an automatic go out and score situation. You have to factor in getting players into rhythm, spreading the ball around etc. LeBron is basically a coach on the floor with a gameplan. He's kinda like what Phil Jackson was to Kobe/Jordan. Like all coaches he deff makes mistakes. His biggest one occasionally being a mental midget. I think guys like Lue help because they take some of the control back from LeBron. Same with Irving taking over.

More than 1 or 2 right ways to play basketball. There's multiple ways to do things that changes depending on your personnel and opponent. For Cleveland vs GS you could tell they were afraid of GS's explosive offensive and how they can catch fire. LeBron/Irving at times were just grinding them down and played slow.

[ShawkFactory]

I agree with your analysis on his impact.

I never downplayed his impact and why that is. I also think that rating a player simply based on 'skill' can be an issue.

But when we're dealing with the elite of the elite, and we're comparing stats and praising players for their stats and stating that player A is better than player B then I think it's fair to look at the entire picture. I feel it's fair to understand context.

I understand some will argue "Shaq has impact is he more skilled than Nash?" Well... For his size (and even then) Shaq was absolutely skilled. He could read the defense, move without the ball, pass as good as some point guards, set up an offense as good as some of the best point guards, could dribble, had different moves, great footwork etc.etc. His accomplishments did not come as a result of him simply being big, his impact is a direct result of elite skill. And Im very positive that the same can be said about the top 50 players.

But what Im doing is grading Bron on a curb.

Because we have to, if he's to be compared to his peers... The top 10 players of all time.

Naturally if I was to grade him on the same curb as Otis Thorpe things would be different. His grade would be significantly higher, but since we're comparing him to Kobe and such, his grade drops in some aspects. Im trying to find the balance between impact and skill I suppose.

I guess it depends on one's criteria and how much weight they add to the skill vs impact debate.

Having said all this, I still think he's top 15 or so all things factored. The stats are there, but some of the substance is lacking when compared to his peers.

Regarding your point on shaq:

Sure, he was a great passer for a big man. But you compared Lebrons passing to the likes of Bird, magic, and Jordan...3 of the GOATs and two of which were guards. Was shaq a better passer than the other ATG big men? Kareem maybe?

Was his footwork better than guy around his spot in the top 10, particularly big men? Perhaps Russell? Idk enough about him to honestly be able to chime in there.

What truly puts shaq there is his size and athleticism. I don't think he was any better skill wise than several players generally ranked lower than him on the list (guys like Barkley, Dirk, Malone, and McHale).

Lebron IS a fantastic passer, and despite lacking time management that you spoke of, he IS excellent at allowing teammates to get into a rhythm due to his willingness and understated ability to continue feeding them in any situation should he recognize that they may be feeling it.

No, he doesn't have the passing substance of a guy like magic, even tho some people like to compare them. But he has it over his positional contemporaries. Not to mention that dominating athleticism and ability to turn defense into offense quicker than almost anyone ever.

I guess I see your point tho. Some people overrate him (#3 all time). But putting him in that tier with guys like shaq, Kobe, and Duncan isn't. Calling him top 10 certainly isn't either considering he's 31 and currently defending a championship. We shall see how his skillset evolves as he gets even older. It's already miles different than it was 5 years ago.

[aj1987]

You clearly didn't watch the video and you've clearly never saw him play.

I did and when I initially said I stopped at the two minute mark, I was actually wrong. I closed the tab after the play that, NuggetsFan above me, is talking about. That's a fairly standard and basic basketball play. I understand though. You tried to pull a Coach Nick and failed worse than he usually does.

If you're wondering why LeBron doesn't score like MJ, pass like Magic, have footwork like Hakeem, play off-ball like Miller, rebound like Wilt, defend like Russell, etc., literally no one in the history of the sport could.