#apples2oranges

**kuniva_dAMiGhTy** · 05-19-2013, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH

Apparently a "Nets fan" too ... very similar to Heavincent. East coast people who defend Kobe like the fiercest of LA stans (YMF, AlphaWolf24, eliteballer, etc)

Honestly, I don't care if they're Kobe fans. I just find it funny that these guys STILL believe Jordan and Kobe are, virtually, the SAME player. That you replace Kobe w/ Jordan and he would have the same career (and vice versa).

I'm over debating this TIRED subject.

**Poochymama** · 05-19-2013, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by tpols

Care to explain where you disagree?

I might take your post more seriously if you occasionally picked a different side of the argument. I take your opinion of a Jordan/Kobe debate about as seriously as Bruce Bowens, both of you guys are just as sad, only different sides of the spectrum.

**tpols** · 05-19-2013, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Poochymama

I might take your post more seriously if you occasionally picked a different side of the argument. I take your opinion of a Jordan/Kobe debate about as seriously as Bruce Bowens, both of you guys are just as sad, only different sides of the spectrum.

I just dont see how saying MJ wouldve fueded with Shaq after winning 4 titles is.. crazy. Not like Jordan wouldnt have won after Shaq.. end his career with 6 or more titles.

**SamuraiSWISH** · 05-19-2013, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy

Honestly, I don't care if they're Kobe fans. I just find it funny that these guys STILL believe Jordan and Kobe are, virtually, the SAME player. That you replace Kobe w/ Jordan and he would have the same career (and vice versa).

I'm over debating this TIRED subject.

Kobe wins a ring w/ the Bulls in '94, '96, and '97 ... I give them that.

MJ being the superior player, and bringing unique assets Kobe does not posses IMO he couldn't replicate what MJ did in '91, '92, '93, and '98 with those Bulls rosters.

**kuniva_dAMiGhTy** · 05-19-2013, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH

Kobe wins a ring w/ the Bulls in '94, '96, and '97 ... I give them that.

MJ being the superior player, and bringing unique assets Kobe does not posses IMO he couldn't replicate what MJ did in '91, '92, '93, and '98 with those Bulls rosters.

There are people in this thread that think Kobe would've gotten 5 rings w/ those Bulls teams. ****ing mind boggling.

**poido123** · 05-19-2013, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by tpols

Im sorry, but this post is way, way too simplistic and doesnt have its roots grounded in reality.

First off you have to use context of what would happen in this scenario.

Rookie MJ would join the Lakers in the late 90s and be a promising young player alongside a very dominant Shaquille Oneal. We all know the offense wouldve still ran through Shaq, and MJ wouldnt have been given full reign to ball out like he did in his first year with the Bulls. Shaq wouldve been the undisputed man.

We all know MJ was a firery competitor and always wanted to be the best. Thats was his goal. To be the best. We all know MJ had a great work ethic, and we also know that he had a hard time trusting his teammates up until 6+ years into his career when Phil reigned him in and made him develop a trust in the system. He was very much seen as an individual type talent and not a true team player ala the greats before him Magic and Larry. That was the main knock on early MJ.

Now, you give a guy who wants to be the best to ever do it, who is insanely competitive and pushes others around him to work as hard as he did, a dominant entering his prime SHAQ and what happens?

They win 2-3 titles within the first 4-5 years easy.. and who gets the credit? Obviously Shaq. He would still feast on the subpar frontlines in th EAST and would still win FMVPs and be seen as the 'man' on those teams.

How does MJ respond to that?

Possessing many of the same traits Kobe does but to a larger than life degree(the real version-competitiveness, the ultimate dick, workaholic, physcotic confidence) MJ wouldve likely tried to get his share of the glory himself and wouldve gunned for FMVPs and to be the featured weapon etc.

Except MJ wouldve done it BETTER than Kobe and he wouldve actually won some of those awards over Shaq because he was actually that good. So say they win 2-3 titles with Shaq getting the glory and then they win their first one with MJ getting the FMVP and large share of the credit?

How does Shaq respond to that? The same Shaq that fueded with Penny.. and Kobe.. and Wade isnt going to fued with perhaps the most demanding and dickheaded player of all time stealing his thunder in the dead middle of his prime ? What?

Guarantee that relationship goes sour well before 5 titles, much less 8 or 10. Thats a joke because we SAW MJ get bored after winning three straight and retire to play baseball. But hes not going to get bored cakewalking to multiple chips with Shaq? MJ always wanted a challenge.

Not only that, but according to andgar, MJ left the league after his three chips because of a giant gambling conspiracy. And were going to act like that type of shit wouldnt affect his ability to stack titles? Having to leave the league under a guise in the middle of his prime because his competitive nature backfired on him(extreme addiction to gambling)?

Not only that but if you look at MJ's leadership.. it was largely built under his tenure with the Bulls where he had to fight it out with undermanned squads against legendary opponents like the C's and Bad Boy Pistons. He built that character and hunger to win through adversity and failing time and time again.. getting nailed in the me3dia for being too selfish and not being good enough. He BUILT that leadership.

It would not have been the same if he got it handed to him from the start. He wouldnt have learned and grown the same way as a player.

This stuff is delicate. It s not a video game where you add up imaginary numbers.

As far as Kobe? Well never know because Pippen developed under MJ.. and so did Kobe actually lol.. Well never know. He literally couldve been a journeyman. You cant just transpose players onto teams without looking at their circumstances. And since Kobe patterned his game from MJ, we would have to assume hed pattern his game off Dr. J or some other great from before him in this hypothetical. Its too messy at that point though.

And sorry for the pauk style essay lol

Good post.

MJ would probably of had Shaq in the best condition of his life. No way Jordan would let Shaq coast through practices and allowed him to be lazy. Who knows, he could of made Shaq into GOAT(not that he already is top 3 now).

It's all very hypothetical, Jordan may not of had the same impact with the Lakers team, because in all likelyhood, there probably wouldn't be any team good enough to challenge them. So all the clutch plays, the flu game, and all the close battles that help build his legacy would not be in existence and people would be saying he isn't that great considering he has Shaq and how stacked they are.

Jordan is one of my favourite players, and his legacy was built on the adversity and challenges he had playing for the Chicago Bulls. It is too simplistic to say that Jordan's impact and GOAT status would be the same if he donned himself a Lakers uniform.

**Young X** · 05-19-2013, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by tpols

Possessing many of the same traits Kobe does but to a larger than life degree(the real version-competitiveness, the ultimate dick, workaholic, physcotic confidence) MJ wouldve likely tried to get his share of the glory himself and wouldve gunned for FMVPs and to be the featured weapon etc.

Good post but I disagree with this part.

The problem is you think MJ was the same as Kobe personality wise when he wasn't, just because they were both 2 of the most cutthroat/competitive athletes ever doesn't automatically mean they would've handled the situations the same way.

We've never seen MJ play with a player even close to being as good as Shaq so it's unlikely he would've sacrificed winning championships for individual glory.

**tpols** · 05-19-2013, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by poido123

Good post.

MJ would probably of had Shaq in the best condition of his life. No way Jordan would let Shaq coast through practices and allowed him to be lazy. Who knows, he could of made Shaq into GOAT(not that he already is top 3 now).

It's all very hypothetical, Jordan may not of had the same impact with the Lakers team, because in all likelyhood, there probably wouldn't be any team good enough to challenge them. So all the clutch plays, the flu game, and all the close battles that help build his legacy would not be in existence and people would be saying he isn't that great considering he has Shaq and how stacked they are.

Jordan is one of my favourite players, and his legacy was built on the adversity and challenges he had playing for the Chicago Bulls. It is too simplistic to say that Jordan's impact and GOAT status would be the same if he donned himself a Lakers uniform.

Fvcking thank you.

I cant believe the Jordan stans jump on my ass within 2 minutes of my post.

And then act like its impossible for Jordan to have fueded with a player who fueded with damn near everyone.

**SamuraiSWISH** · 05-19-2013, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Young X

Good post but I disagree with this part.

The problem is you think MJ was the same as Kobe personality wise when he wasn't, just because they were both 2 of the most cutthroat/competitive athletes ever doesn't automatically mean they would've handled the situations the same way.

We've never seen MJ play with a player even close to being as good as Shaq so it's unlikely he would've sacrificed winning championships for individual glory.

Precisely. This "MJ was a dick" thing is getting blown out of proportion. PJ himself said MJ was gregarious. He chided teammates but also BUILT THEM UP, and gave them confidence. He included them in poker games on planes, gave them a chance to win money from (as he said) a way of giving back his much bigger contracts from the Bulls to his teammates. That stuff goes a long way. Meaning, he was an inherently better leader. Being a cut throat competitor doesn't make you a dick for life.

I'm tired of the misrepresentation of who MJ was. Like a little kid would walk up to him as him for an autograph and he would spit on the kid and say NO. MJ was NOT that kind of guy.

**DMAVS41** · 05-19-2013, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by tpols

Im sorry, but this post is way, way too simplistic and doesnt have its roots grounded in reality.

First off you have to use context of what would happen in this scenario.

Rookie MJ would join the Lakers in the late 90s and be a promising young player alongside a very dominant Shaquille Oneal. We all know the offense wouldve still ran through Shaq, and MJ wouldnt have been given full reign to ball out like he did in his first year with the Bulls. Shaq wouldve been the undisputed man.

We all know MJ was a firery competitor and always wanted to be the best. Thats was his goal. To be the best. We all know MJ had a great work ethic, and we also know that he had a hard time trusting his teammates up until 6+ years into his career when Phil reigned him in and made him develop a trust in the system. He was very much seen as an individual type talent and not a true team player ala the greats before him Magic and Larry. That was the main knock on early MJ.

Now, you give a guy who wants to be the best to ever do it, who is insanely competitive and pushes others around him to work as hard as he did, a dominant entering his prime SHAQ and what happens?

They win 2-3 titles within the first 4-5 years easy.. and who gets the credit? Obviously Shaq. He would still feast on the subpar frontlines in th EAST and would still win FMVPs and be seen as the 'man' on those teams.

How does MJ respond to that?

Possessing many of the same traits Kobe does but to a larger than life degree(the real version-competitiveness, the ultimate dick, workaholic, physcotic confidence) MJ wouldve likely tried to get his share of the glory himself and wouldve gunned for FMVPs and to be the featured weapon etc.

Except MJ wouldve done it BETTER than Kobe and he wouldve actually won some of those awards over Shaq because he was actually that good. So say they win 2-3 titles with Shaq getting the glory and then they win their first one with MJ getting the FMVP and large share of the credit?

How does Shaq respond to that? The same Shaq that fueded with Penny.. and Kobe.. and Wade isnt going to fued with perhaps the most demanding and dickheaded player of all time stealing his thunder in the dead middle of his prime ? What?

Guarantee that relationship goes sour well before 5 titles, much less 8 or 10. Thats a joke because we SAW MJ get bored after winning three straight and retire to play baseball. But hes not going to get bored cakewalking to multiple chips with Shaq? MJ always wanted a challenge.

Not only that, but according to andgar, MJ left the league after his three chips because of a giant gambling conspiracy. And were going to act like that type of shit wouldnt affect his ability to stack titles? Having to leave the league under a guise in the middle of his prime because his competitive nature backfired on him(extreme addiction to gambling)?

Not only that but if you look at MJ's leadership.. it was largely built under his tenure with the Bulls where he had to fight it out with undermanned squads against legendary opponents like the C's and Bad Boy Pistons. He built that character and hunger to win through adversity and failing time and time again.. getting nailed in the me3dia for being too selfish and not being good enough. He BUILT that leadership.

It would not have been the same if he got it handed to him from the start. He wouldnt have learned and grown the same way as a player.

This stuff is delicate. It s not a video game where you add up imaginary numbers.

As far as Kobe? Well never know because Pippen developed under MJ.. and so did Kobe actually lol.. Well never know. He literally couldve been a journeyman. You cant just transpose players onto teams without looking at their circumstances. And since Kobe patterned his game from MJ, we would have to assume hed pattern his game off Dr. J or some other great from before him in this hypothetical. Its too messy at that point though.

And sorry for the pauk style essay lol

It's not simplistic at all.

You have to understand how good MJ was right away. The Lakers were a 56 win team without Kobe in 97. Adding a rookie MJ to that team and they make the finals in my opinion

Now, Jordan got hurt in his 2nd year. So we'll throw that out.

3rd year MJ and Shaq in 99? 50/50 if they beat the Spurs. It's not simplistic...you just have no clue how good Jordan actually was compared to early on Kobe.

Obviously then the 3 peat.

Then 1 more for sure title in 03 or 04.

So again...even if you take a year away from Jordan for his injury...you get 5 titles very easily.

If you want to talk about quitting or MJ getting bored or something like that...that is a different story.

But here is reality. Kobe will end his career with 3 more rings than he would have had if he didn't luck into playing with Shaq. The only other player of the era that would have yielded 1 title to Kobe in the 8 year stretch to start his career was Duncan. So if Kobe doesn't play with Duncan or Shaq...he's winless early on

And the downside? His ppg would likely be 1 to 3 points higher per game with his fg% dipping 1% or so

The only thing that would change is that Kobe would be already behind Lebron all time and West vs Kobe would be more of a legit debate

That is it.

Those 5 rings are a huge positive on his legacy and for Kobe to pretend like it was bad luck or something is just absurd

He got to play with prime/peak Shaq for 8 years.

And do you realize that MJ was better than Shaq?

This myth that Kobe had to give anything up for Shaq is nonsense. MJ would have still averaged over 30 a game.

It's not like MJ and Kobe would have played the exact same role. The Lakers would have gone to MJ more than they went to Kobe for the simple reason MJ was much better.

I see it being Shaq as the better player from 97 to 00...and then MJ from 01 through 04.

I have no doubt MJ would have had his issues with Shaq...but Shaq would have listened to MJ...hell, just look at the relationship Shaq and Wade had in 05 and 06. They got it done and Shaq was leading the "flash" bandwagon

The GOAT and peak Shaq is just too good to overcome for the league then.

**The-Legend-24** · 05-19-2013, 09:12 PM