Why Didn't Kyrie Average More Points By Himself?

[CTbasketball92]

Considering his skillset, seems kind of odd that he only averaged 22.5 ppg in his best season. I see he hadn't played more than 35 minutes, so maybe that's it. Maybe it's the era?

[Smoke117]

He actually had to "try" (lets face it...he didn't try every hard) and be a pg then. He's an undersized SG and Lebron being there allows him to embrace this fact.

It's also easier to score when your team has more weapons, obviously

[CTbasketball92]

He actually had to "try" (lets face it...he didn't try every hard) and be a pg then. He's an undersized SG and Lebron being there allows him to embrace this fact.

It's also easier to score when your team has more weapons, obviously

Yeah, I kind of thought that was it. I think it was specifically Tyron Lue's decision to "unleash" him in the playoffs that showed us what Kyrie's scoring output could be if he just flatout plays shooting guard. Honestly, w. lebron, makes perfect sense and I say it was a smart move.

Would've been interesting to see what Irving could do with a harrison barnes and kevin love and the rest of this cavs lineup sans LeBron (solid talent). He's a solid passer, just not great court sense.

[Smoke117]

Yeah, I kind of thought that was it. I think it was specifically Tyron Lue's decision to "unleash" him in the playoffs that showed us what Kyrie's scoring output could be if he just flatout plays shooting guard. Honestly, w. lebron, makes perfect sense and I say it was a smart move.

Would've been interesting to see what Irving could do with a harrison barnes and kevin love and the rest of this cavs lineup sans LeBron (solid talent). He's a solid passer, just not great court sense.

Either way...he's become massively overrated. He only looks so good because Lebron does all shit he doesn't: playmake, defend, rebound. The fact that people were putting him in the top 10 players for this upcoming season when he legitimately isn't even a top 5 pg is pathetic. No team would ever contend for a championship if he was their best player..he's this generations Carmelo Anthony.

[CTbasketball92]

Either way...he's become massively overrated. He only looks so good because Lebron does all shit he doesn't: playmake, defend, rebound. The fact that people were putting him in the top 10 players for this upcoming season when he legitimately isn't even a top 5 pg is pathetic. No team would ever contend for a championship if he was their best player..he's this generations Carmelo Anthony.

Ok

1. He played solid defense in 2014-2015 before he got injured. He missed training camp and 5 months of running and conditioning coming back this year, when his defense regressed noticeably. In the playoffs? Every single pg he played against shot much worse than they usually did, including curry, who looked just fine against westbrook and OKC. He's going to be at least an average defender this year, and when you're a great offensive player, you don't have to be a great defender, and no PG is locking up another top 5 pg (only time that's happened is ... this year in the finals, lol).

2. 5 apg while playing next to lebron isn't too shabby, and is also a solid number for shooting guard, especially when you consider how low his turnover rate is and how efficient he is from the field. So Irving is a shooting guard who passes the ball and defends the point guard position adequately. Fine by me and any GM in their right mind.

3. The "win with (this player)" as your best player argument is kind of a moot point these days because you need at least two superstars, like four all stars or a team with two stars with a brilliant coach/system to win a championship in 2016. The point is, Irving proved that as one of a team's two best players, he can absolutely win you a championship, and considering that he averaged 25 ppg, 5 assists with a 57 TS% with a 30% usage rate, trying to argue that he was "just a second option" is silly, he was at least a 1b this year. Although I wouldn't say Irving is definitely a top 10 player, I can't think of any other player in the top 10 besides maybe Anthony Davis and James Harden that could fulfill the role Irving just fulfilled -- aka, destroying the league's best defense night in and night out for five straight games. Lillard, Wall, and other PG's outside the top 3 (Curry, Westbrook and CP3) aren't good enough scorers to get the job done (they both only shoot 39% in the playoffs).

4. Carmelo led the nuggets deep into the playoffs in the western conference and had the knicks when 55+ games with JR smith as the second best player. Melo was way better than Klay Thompson and other wings besides durant, LeBron and possibly Kawhi, but Melo might've been better than him too. Insert any perimeter superstar on the spurs or the Warriors and they're easily contenders for the championship every single year. Melo was at minimal a top 7 player at his best, he's becoming too underrated. If Kyrie is the PG melo, he'll be good money, because he's already played a bigger role in winning a championship than Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, Kawhi Leonard and funny enough, Stephen Curry. Sounds good to me.

But yeah, I'd say put kyrie anywhere between 11-13 for this year's rankings. Obviously a superstar playoff run, and arguing against that is silly.

[Smoke117]

But yeah, I'd say put kyrie anywhere between 11-13 for this year's rankings. Obviously a superstar playoff run, and arguing against that is silly.

It's easy to have a a "superstar" playoff run when you are playing with the best player in the league...see kobe in the early 2000s for an example.

[CTbasketball92]

It's easy to have a a "superstar" playoff run when you are playing with the best player in the league...see kobe in the early 2000s for an example.

But that just goes into my point though. What player do you know besides LeBron that has ever had a superstar playoff run without another superstar? Maybe AI in '01. James Harden in 2015 is an argument, but he had DHoward who was still probably at least a top 2 center. Playing next to LeBron is nice, but playing next to Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Iguodala and GSW's limitless skilled role players is probably even better. Curry had all of that help and even a great coach, and still lost this year, and damn near lost last year. Playing next to Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobli and Tony Parker (Kawhi in 2014) under Pop's brilliant coaching is probably even better or just as good as playing with LeBron. LeBron and Kyrie just won the chip without a third option (K.love completely neutralized). They were literally the only players on their team that could create looks off the dribble. No one was cutting, no one was doing anything but standing around and playing defense. Cavs won because of lebron's stellar all around playing and Kyrie's timely GOAT-esque scoring and solid defense. And what exactly did Shaq ever do without an elite perimeter player? Was kobe not one of the league's best two-way players in 2000-2004? His playoff stats were incredible, even if his finals stats were somewhat pedestrian. No denying that.

There are only two players that can carry a bad/average team to 10 playoff wins. One is LeBron (in the east), and the other is Durant (maybe). So that must mean there are only 2 superstars.

[stalkerforlife]

What was he, 19 when he entered the league?

He's not even in his prime right now and was farther away from it in years previous.

[stalkerforlife]

It's easy to have a a "superstar" playoff run when you are playing with the best player in the league...see kobe in the early 2000s for an example.

There's the real you.

Forget the fact that Kyrie creates nearly all of his offense and is a better one on one player than Bran.

THIS is the reality I want you to display...a pure BIAS for your hero and a disdain for his teammates to prop him up.

Stop acting.

[Smoke117]

There's the real you.

Forget the fact that Kyrie creates nearly all of his offense and is a better one on one player than Bran.

THIS is the reality I want you to display...a pure BIAS for your hero and a disdain for his teammates to prop him up.

Stop acting.

I highly doubt that any of the halfway decent posters here would disagree with the fact that Lebron is the best player in the league...but they also didn't cry when Kobe retired...so that you have no understanding of logic doesn't surprise me, cupcake.

[CTbasketball92]

I highly doubt that any of the halfway decent posters here would disagree with the fact that Lebron is the best player in the league...but they also didn't cry when Kobe retired...so that you have no understanding of logic doesn't surprise me, cupcake.

Your point is just silly. Having LeBron on your team if you're an elite player pretty much equates to having a good team. No player ever wins a championship without a good team, Kyrie didn't have an advantage that any other all star/superstar nba champion in the last 10 years didn't. A 24-year-old , coming off an injury, had a good team and won the championship with a usage rate just as high as LeBron's and almost all of his points coming off the dribble. Your implicating that Kyrie was carried simply doesn't make sense statistically.

[Nilocon165]

I highly doubt that any of the halfway decent posters here would disagree with the fact that Lebron is the best player in the league...but they also didn't cry when Kobe retired...so that you have no understanding of logic doesn't surprise me, cupcake.

Just stop replying to him.

That's what I'm gonna start to do anyway.

Will be tough because most of his posts leave me so amazed or shocked that I have to reply right away to tell him what an idiot he is.

[Smoke117]

Just stop replying to him.

That's what I'm gonna start to do anyway.

Will be tough because most of his posts leave me so amazed or shocked that I have to reply right away to tell him what an idiot he is.

Eh...I feel like I have to...he might kill himself if he finally realizes what a complete joke he is here...and I don't want that on my conscience.

[I<3NBA]

if he's the number 1 option, he will struggle. he needs someone to take away some of the defensive pressure off. teams game plan more for Lebron than they do for Kyrie. the double comes more often for Lebron than it does for Kyrie.

it works best for the Cavs so no complaints here.

[aj1987]

1. He played solid defense in 2014-2015 before he got injured. He missed training camp and 5 months of running and conditioning coming back this year, when his defense regressed noticeably. In the playoffs? Every single pg he played against shot much worse than they usually did, including curry, who looked just fine against westbrook and OKC. He's going to be at least an average defender this year, and when you're a great offensive player, you don't have to be a great defender, and no PG is locking up another top 5 pg (only time that's happened is ... this year in the finals, lol).

Last season in the RS, Irving defended 11.2 FGA's a game and players shot 46.6% against him, compared to their regular 43.7%. Players defended by Irving improved their FG% by 2.9%.

In the PO's, his defensive cover was worse by 3.4% in the first round. 0.1% worse in the ECSF. However, Irving let his defensive cover shoot 7.3% better, but he was injured though.

In the '16 PO's, his defensive cover shot 53.2%, compared to their usual 45.7%. 7.5% better with Irving guarding them. +8.2% in the first round, +6.8% in the ECSF, +6.7% in the ECF, and +8% in the Finals.

On a side note, players defended by LeBron shot 31.9% when guarded by him, compared to their usual 45.9%.

2. 5 apg while playing next to lebron isn't too shabby, and is also a solid number for shooting guard, especially when you consider how low his turnover rate is and how efficient he is from the field. So Irving is a shooting guard who passes the ball and defends the point guard position adequately. Fine by me and any GM in their right mind.

The season before LeBron went to the Cavs, Irving averaged 6.1 assists. That's pretty solid for an SG, but Irving isn't one. Dude's a PG.

But yeah, I'd say put kyrie anywhere between 11-13 for this year's rankings. Obviously a superstar playoff run, and arguing against that is silly.

No doubt. Dude was a terrific scorer, but as the other poster said, he does little outside scoring. He's pretty much the perfect player next to LeBron though. I wouldn't really call him a superstar right now. If he improves his defense, he's definitely a superstar.