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  1. #1
    Titles are overrated Kblaze8855's Avatar
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    Default ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #20: Paul Pierce vs Dolph Schayes.

    In a bit of a surprise Pierce beat Jerry Lucas making our list so far:


    26. Webber
    25. Dantley
    24. King
    23. Cunningham
    22. Worthy
    21. Lucas
    20. ?

    Paul Pierce:




    9 time all star
    4 times all NBA(3 third 1 second)
    2008 NBA champion
    2008 Finals MVP
    Career 22/6/4 player with single season peaks of 27 points, 7 rebounds, and 5 assists.
    Led NBA in free throws in 2003
    Led NBA in total points in 2002
    Second in the NBA in steals per game in 2002


    What else they were saying:

    "To me, he's probably the best scorer in the league," said O'Neal
    That Oneal not being the one who named him the truth(Shaq)...that one is Jermaine. Night after playing the Celtics in 2005.

    Pretty straight forward what it means...but ill add...in February of that season he averaged 34ppg on 48% shooting.



    Dolph Schayes





    12 time all star
    12 times all NBA(6 first 6 second)
    1955 NBA champion
    Career 19/12/3 player with single season peaks of 25 points, 16 rebounds, and 4 assists.
    Led the NBA in rebounds per game in 1951
    Led NBA in free throws twice
    Second in MVP voting in 1958

    What they were saying


    "He's a true superstar," said Earl Lloyd, the first black man to play in the NBA and former teammate of Schayes. "The only problem I've had with Dolph is that Dolph was so good, when you were on the court with him, you had to guard against becoming a spectator because you were almost tempted to just stand there and watch him play."
    Why it matters?

    Despite his stereotypical "Skinny white guy" look he was considered quite amazing to watch and his few highlights online kinda show you why. he had more skills than people probably assume. Ive seen him hitting long jumpers, floaters with both hands, running the court, throwing nice no look passes and all. hes likely never gonna get a fair shake far as credit for his skills because most wont look past how he looks and when he played.

  2. #2
    Titles are overrated Kblaze8855's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #20: Paul Pierce vs Dolph Schayes.

    I think this is fairly simple.

    If you care about what each player did....Dolph wins. If you care how good they were considered in their era...Dolph wins.

    If you choose to vote for the player you would want on your team...right now. In 2011...based on the skills they have and their scoring numbers....Pierce wins.

    Comes down to legacy vs what you consider their ability to be. Really no other way to look at it.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #20: Paul Pierce vs Dolph Schayes.

    My vote is for Dolph Schayes.

    He played in 16 seasons and helped to lead his team into the playoffs 15 times. Schayes was a great free throw shooter, as he lead the NBA in free throw percentage 3 times (1958, 1960, and 1962).

    For a long time he held the NBA Iron Man streak of 706 games.

    When Schayes retired, he was the all-time leading scorer in NBA history.

    Though he never won an MVP, he was runner up in 1958, finished in the Top 5 3 more times, and was in the Top 10 for MVP voting 6 times.

    In contrast to Pierce, he was in the MVP voting only 5 times and only once finished in the Top 10 (7th place).

    Though, kblaze did state that this will come down to legacy vs ability, I think this should be a win for Schayes easily.

  4. #4
    nba finals towel boy Kyle_korver's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #20: Paul Pierce vs Dolph Schayes.

    Isn't pierce the celtics all time leading scorer???..that's a good accolade to add

  5. #5
    Local High School Star WillC's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #20: Paul Pierce vs Dolph Schayes.

    Dolph Schayes in a landslide victory.

    Schayes was a top 10 (in fact, arguably top 5) player in the NBA for 12 consecutive years between 1950 and 1962. He finished 2nd in MVP voting one year behind Bill Russell.

    (Paul Pierce, meanwhile, finished in the top 10 in MVP voting just once in his career)

    Schayes had the highest win shares (arguably the best advanced statistic) of any player in the 1950s.

    The fact that Pierce will receive any votes at all is a joke and shows the complete lack of respect that many 'fans' have for the history of the game.

    Oh, and this is coming from someone who paid $2,000 to travel from the UK to Boston last year to watch the Celtics in person.

  6. #6
    Serious playground baller RobertdeMeijer's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #20: Paul Pierce vs Dolph Schayes.

    Oh, I have great respect for Schayes. I'm very glad he made it this high in the list. He should be remembered.

    But putting things into perspective, I believe Paul Pierce has achieved more greatness. I honestly think that being a perennial All-star after the merger counts more than being a perennial All-nba player before Russell joined the league. The fifties were, not only skill-wise, but also legacy-wise, less great than the aughts.
    I'll put Bob Pettit higher than Paul Pierce without a doubt, because for a awhile, he was the arguably the best player in the league for awhile. That's pretty special.

    What is special about Schayes then?
    -He had a shot named "Sputnik" (but Pierce had a great nickname)
    -He played a season with his right arm broken (which might say more about the league than him...)
    -He's Jewish (which I guess is about as important as being a Celtic)
    -He led the Nationals to a championship (and Pierce won a Finals MVP)

    Look, if I'm ever going to tell my kids the history of basketball, I'm gonna mention him... eventually. After Mikan, Johnston, Cousy and Pettit.
    When I get to the naughts, I'll also first mention a bunch of other guys (Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Nash). But it's gonna be much more compelling. My kids are going to remember him much better than Schayes.
    Paul Pierce gets my nod, by a small margin.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #20: Paul Pierce vs Dolph Schayes.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertdeMeijer
    Oh, I have great respect for Schayes. I'm very glad he made it this high in the list. He should be remembered.

    But putting things into perspective, I believe Paul Pierce has achieved more greatness. I honestly think that being a perennial All-star after the merger counts more than being a perennial All-nba player before Russell joined the league. The fifties were, not only skill-wise, but also legacy-wise, less great than the aughts.
    I'll put Bob Pettit higher than Paul Pierce without a doubt, because for a awhile, he was the arguably the best player in the league for awhile. That's pretty special.

    What is special about Schayes then?
    -He had a shot named "Sputnik" (but Pierce had a great nickname)
    -He played a season with his right arm broken (which might say more about the league than him...)
    -He's Jewish (which I guess is about as important as being a Celtic)
    -He led the Nationals to a championship (and Pierce won a Finals MVP)

    Look, if I'm ever going to tell my kids the history of basketball, I'm gonna mention him... eventually. After Mikan, Johnston, Cousy and Pettit.
    When I get to the naughts, I'll also first mention a bunch of other guys (Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Nash). But it's gonna be much more compelling. My kids are going to remember him much better than Schayes.
    Paul Pierce gets my nod, by a small margin.
    Some of your reasons are pretty shitty but I do agree with you overall. Pierce should take this one.

  8. #8
    Good college starter Locked_Up_Tonight's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #20: Paul Pierce vs Dolph Schayes.

    Is Dolph Shayes really better than the other forwards?

    Blaze, I do not get how you determine the order.

    It's funny because the order in which **you** place the matchup effects this ranking way more than taking a poll and making a list a la what ESPN did.

  9. #9
    owwwww
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #20: Paul Pierce vs Dolph Schayes.

    Paul Pierce

    I'm less inclined to voting for players based on accolades in their era, particularly in the 50s when the top flight players just aren't comparable to those of other eras imo. And how well your game translates era to era kind of matters to me. You can look at things like MVP voting, but let's keep the competition for MVP in perspective for when Dolph was getting top 5 finishes, wasn't exactly beating out or going against guys like Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, T-Mac, Iverson, LeBron, Wade etc etc etc year in year out. Based on playing ball? I don't really see what Dolph does better than Pierce other than rebound (though gap not as big as it seems based on the raw numbers...Pierce's rebounding numbers probably come out to 10+ under the same pace).

    If the MVP thing is going to be the argument...I'm guessing if we looked at most all-time lists, you'd have ranked most of the elite guys in the league during Pierce's time over guys who were finishing in the top 5 in MVP in voting in the 50s (George Yardley, Mel Hutchins, Cousy...but then again Cousy is a top 10 guard of all-time according to ISH, etc etc). I don't see how that's fair to the player who had to play in a league with a deeper talent pool.

    Pierce doesn't really lack anything, legit franchise caliber scorer/offensive player, really good prime (26/7/3, 25/6/4 26/7/4 on really good efficiency while on playoff teams that went as far as the conference finals), great all-around game, lots of clutch moments, won championship/finals MVP, has longevity and durability (only one season under 70 games...and that year the Celtics were 4-31 without him)...the main thing being held against him (accolades) is essentially because the league had better players when he happened to play. And also...it's like if people at a time overlooked a guy like Pierce was early on, Dirk to an extent too before '06 (then again afterwards in '07)...doesn't necessarily mean that is an accurate protrayal of how good they actually were in those years. Guy like Rose has an MVP and Wade doesn't, are you going to be telling me in 20 years that Rose was seen as the better player in those years? MVP voting is very situational, and you're just not gonna be placing that high when in your prime, Antoine Walker taking 8 threes a game is your wingman. It's like situation and context don't even matter.
    Last edited by Fatal9; 10-24-2011 at 07:32 AM.

  10. #10
    Please clap. Real Men Wear Green's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #20: Paul Pierce vs Dolph Schayes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle_korver
    Isn't pierce the celtics all time leading scorer???..that's a good accolade to add
    No, he isn't. But don't let that stop you!

  11. #11
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #20: Paul Pierce vs Dolph Schayes.

    Paul Pierce

    Both were great offensive players, but Pierce was just better. He had more clutch performance, is more rounded, has a better skill set and has been better performer in the playoffs.

  12. #12
    Utah Jazz (6-6) Yung D-Will's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #20: Paul Pierce vs Dolph Schayes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
    Is Dolph Shayes really better than the other forwards?

    Blaze, I do not get how you determine the order.

    It's funny because the order in which **you** place the matchup effects this ranking way more than taking a poll and making a list a la what ESPN did.
    Everyone gave him list and he combined that with like the espn list and came up with the order If I'm correct.

  13. #13

    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #20: Paul Pierce vs Dolph Schayes.

    Schayes: 16 years, 11 quality, 12 time All-Stars, '58 MVP runner-up. top 5 in 52-55, 57 & 58, & top 10 in 50, 51, 56, 59-61). Best player on '55 Nationals.

    The perfect player for the rough & tumble 50s. Once broke his arm during his prime and went ahead to shoot left handed, and clubbed suckers with his right on the way to the basket. Effective both before & after the institution of the 24 second shot-clock.

    Put up points (18.6 for 16 years) with high arcing two-hand set shot, and drove recklessly, and had excellent FT accuracy. Actually led the NBA in 1958, 60, 62.

    Shrewd passer, and rugged rebounder. Belligerent tho' slow-footed on defense, but always left his opponents with bruises.

    PP doesn't stand out as much in his era of great swingmen and doesn't even crack the top 15 small forwards, much less 10. I have Schayes 6th on my alltime power forward list.

  14. #14
    Please clap. Real Men Wear Green's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #20: Paul Pierce vs Dolph Schayes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung
    PP doesn't stand out as much in his era of great swingmen and doesn't even crack the top 15 small forwards, much less 10. I have Schayes 6th on my alltime power forward list.
    May I ask who your 15 better SFs are?

  15. #15
    I Insist JohnnySic's Avatar
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    Default Re: ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #20: Paul Pierce vs Dolph Schayes.

    Pierce IS a top-10/15 sf....

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