ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #14 - Allen Iverson vs. Gary Payton

[G.O.A.T]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]

Make your arguments here for the next 48 hours on rather Allen Iverson or Gary Payton should advance and continue to move higher on the list. Put the players name you are voting for in BOLD so I don't miss it when I tally. The loser of this poll will be ranked #15 in our project.

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14 seasons
7x all-NBA
10x all-star
2001 MVP
1997 Rookie of the Year
2001 & 2005 All-Star Game MVP
4x Scoring Champion
3x Steals Leader
6th All-time career PPG (26.7)

Votes (3)
WillC
magnax1
Toizumi






17 seasons
9x all-NBA
9x all-star
9x all-defensive (all 1st team)
1996 DPOTY
1x steals leader
4th all-time in steals
8th all-time in assists
2006 NBA Champion

Votes (13)
crossover
Shaqattack3234
iamgine
ThaSwagg3r
SteveNashMVPcro
KGMN
Boston C's
nycelt84
Gotterdammerung
SuperPippen
1987 Lakers
Rose
RobertdeMeijer

[ballerz]

Gary Payton

[G.O.A.T]

SuperPippen added to the project roster, now has a vote.

[crosso√er]

This is really tough; Iverson is a more legendary name but Payton did more things for a team on the basketball court. Both were relatively small but Gary had that physicality to him very few small guards had. He was one of the absolute greatest point guard at going in the low post, bullying-up his man and getting the bucket. Iverson was obviously on a different tier, scoring wise. He was as creative as we've seen from a guard his size; and because of his size and the position he played, he had to be a demi-god in order to achieve everything he has on his resume.

I'm torn between this match-up; I actually had an easier time choosing Gervin over Iverson mostly because Iceman was simply better then Iverson at the one thing both players are known for. However, I don't think Gary can actually carry a team like Iverson could. He is a terrific 2nd option but I've never known Gary to take-over games like Isiah could. Both were ball-dominant guards and honestly; I wouldn't say Iverson was any worse of a passer then Gary. Despite being ranked 8th overall in career assists, Gary was never an eye-opening passer to me. It seemed like he racked up assists mostly because he controlled the ball so often. I don't think their assist numbers would have any discrepancy if Iverson didn't take more shots and was expected to scorer.

To me Iverson is a better scorer (clearly) and Payton was a far greater defensive presence. Now everything else I simply need to put in perspective for me to make a valid conclusion.

Success = A Draw, I wouldn't give anyone the edge. Iverson led his team to the championship; Payton had a great team around him every-time he went deep in the playoffs. Him winning a title in 06' doesn't hold much water to me, since he wasn't a focal point to that championship squad.

Impact = A Draw, I think Iverson being a better scorer is neutralized by Gary's prolific defensive prowess, scoring efficiency & being better at protecting the ball. Gary also naturally (due to his position) had more assists per game and even had the edge in the rebounding department. Both played the passing lanes really well but Payton could actually dominate an opposing guard defensively (man to man, help, low-post, passing lanes etc.). Iverson could not; he often gambled defensively and was no where near as ferocious.

Defense = Payton, by a landslide.

Personal Accolades = A Draw.

Iverson's case: MVP, ROTY, 4 scoring titles, 1 All-Star & 1 All-NBA
Payton's case: DPOTY & 9 more All-Defensive teams.

Uhm, Iverson clearly demonstrated his superiority by placing the ball in the basket. He was rewarded four times and even won the MVP. Payton on the other hand, dominated at something he was known for (aka The Glove); defense. In my opinion, his legacy should live longer then Iverson's; but it won't because a casual fan doesn't care about defense or fundamentals, they tend to give love to those players who were really spectacular at one particular thing (Iverson was also flashier & more exciting to watch due to his creativity & crossovers). His defensive accolades exceed Iverson's scoring accomplishments, IMHO. AI was a ball-dominant guard who didn't have an overly impressive FG%, TS%, PPS etc. He racked up points and will always be known as one of the greatest scoring guards of All-Time. Payton quite possibly is the greatest defensive guard of All-Time; perhaps that's a stretch, but he is certainly higher on his respective ladder then Allen Iverson is on his. There's only about four/five guards that have ever won the illustrious DPOTY award; how many times has a guard collected the scoring title?

In conclusion, I pick Gary Payton. I believe he would make my team better more times then Iverson would. He brings a little of everything to the table; efficient scorer, capable scorer, great rebounder (due to his physicality), good passer, terrific ball-handler, legendary defender and most importantly fierce competitor. Their resumes are almost identical; Iverson might have slightly more personal accolades but that's only because he excelled at something that put him in an ideal position to win awards that media tends to favor. However, Gary's resume is just as legendary and he kept his team's more relevant for longer. Surely Iverson has had more highlight reel moments and will be remembered for his clutch performances; but that's only because people have a selective memory and will never really reminiscence on all the times he was a detriment to team success.

Payton is my choice, yep, it took a bit of convincing on my part.
It's definitely close.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I vote for Gary Payton. Much better defender and while he wasn't the scorer that Iverson was, he was a better passer/playmaker(though not by that much). I also saw Payton fit in very successfully with talent, but carry bad teams as well. Look at the 1999-2002 Sonics, all worse than Iverson's Sixer teams defensively and some were not that much better offensively playing in a much tougher conference and the worst they finished was .500. With that being said, Payton had some bad habits as well, such as being pretty ball dominant, and as his career went on, his shot selection got more questionable. But I've seen Payton on three 60+ win teams as the best or second best player, he's also reached the finals as the best player(in a better conference than Iverson), he's carried teams and co-existed with stars, so I'd be more confident building a team around him. Though a lot of that has to do with Payton being a 6'4" point guard and Iverson being a 6'0" shooting guard. I've also always liked guards who can post up, and Payton was one of the best post up guards.

With that being said, their primes and peaks aren't far apart, and I think that you could make a case for Iverson having the better peak.

[HylianNightmare]

Iverson

though i'm thinkin payton takes this one

[Kellogs4toniee]

Gary Payton to me, and it's a pretty solid choice, don't really have to think about it too much. Payton is one of the most complete guards to ever play the game. His defense wasn't just upper tier, it was elite of elite status for most of his career. Easily one of the best scoring point guards of not only his generation, but all time. Could have easily signed for up to 35 mil but signed the mid-level to go ring chasing, which is what he should be doing at that point in his career. Ultimately won a ring, albeit as a role player.

Iverson had a greater cultural impact, scored more (which makes sense becuase he was predominantly a SG and never had another scorer by him at Kemps level when on the 76er's), and was a very good off ball defender in his prime. But Payton's 10+ years of elite balance, rival'ed only by Jordan (in terms of overall offense and defense), trumps Iveron's elite scoring years and team success. Factor it to the quality of team-mates or not, but Payton simply had better team success. This is a good thing because it postively correlates directly to his role on the team : the point guard.

[iamgine]

I had Payton at #13 and Iverson at #14.

[PTB Fan]

Gary Payton

I'd argue him over AI for couple of reasons and they are:

-All-Around Game:He was one of the most complete players of all time, who did everything right, was terrific offensively and defensively as well. He patrolled the passing lanes well. He beats AI in this aspect.


Defense:Payton was simply said, one of the best defenders in the NBA History. He was arguably the most elite defensive PG, whose ability to defend the ball were arguably second to none. His perimeter defense was the best ever too and he was superb on the lanes.

It's safe to say that Payton was arguably the top defender of all time!



Achievements: Payton's resume is just as good as AI's.


Passing: While AI was excellent passer for a guy with a scorer's mentality, he wasn't greater passer than Payton. Gary ranks top 10 in terms of career assists and he led the league in assists.

[CAstill]

I pick GP too but he has never lead a team to the finals as the best player.
96 Kemp>>>anyone in the league that year (yup MJ too)
Go back and watch the whole playoff run. Kemp was better in every series and was given the chances for the game winners. How you going to give a PF the chance to try to hit a game winner to go to the finals when you have a DPOY shooting point gaurd GP that was deadly from the three and could back down his defender at will? CUZ KEMP WAS BETTER! Kemp didn't miss and choke on FT's when the game was on the line. Kemp's 96 turnaround and fadeaway that he learned from Jordan was unstoppable. GP did give WADE that ring in 06 though when he hit that 3 from the corner in game 5 i believe. And he definitely cost the Lakers 04, Kobe and Shaq beef or Not. That was on GP, not Kobe and Shaq.

[FatComputerNerd]

There are not 13 pointguards who were better than Payton.

Or is this for guards in general?

[rodman91]

Iverson.
He has better career stats.
He won MVP.
He carried his team better with lesser support.

Also Iverson has
6th most ppg in season history
2nd most ppg in playoffs history
3rd most scoring titles.
most stealing titles in history.

Career stats
Iverson : 26.7 ppg 3.7 rpg 6.2 apg 2.2 spg
Payton: 16.3 ppg 3.9 rpg 6.7 apg 1.8 spg

As career peak season
Iverson: 33.0 ppg 7.4 rpg 3.2 rpg
Payton: 24.2 ppg 8.9 apg 6.5 rpg

Despite Payton's amazing defensive pressure, Iverson has edge.

[Soothing Layup]

Allen Iverson was a top 5 offensive player being only 1 of 3 players to average over 30 ppg during their lifetime in the playoffs. (MJ and Wilt are the other two.)

Also, his MVP also helps a lot. Gary was a great great player don't get me wrong, but he wasn't on Iversons level. Simple as that.

[Big164]

Iverson was the guy who crossed Jordan. Scoring-wise he came closer to jordans career ppg than anyone else including Kobe.

It's unfortunate that his place on this list is a function of the lackluster teams he played for. He never even had a detlef let alone a kemp or a shaq to carry him to the promise land.

I don't see Payton or even Kobe carrying dikembe and snow to an NBA finals.

[Big164]

Iverson.


Career stats
Iverson : 26.7 ppg 3.7 rpg 6.2 apg 2.2 spg
Payton: 16.3 ppg 3.9 rpg 6.7 apg 1.8 spg

This really says it all. Iverson and Payton are pretty much even in rebounds assists and steals but ai is a full 10 points ahead in scoring.