The Loss Chronicles

[guy]

He's the only clear cut Top 10 player outside of possibly Kobe who didn't average double digits in a single category other than points, not even for one single season.

Thats really not the nature of a wing player's game though so I don't see how thats relevant. They usually average more assists then big men and more rebounds then PGs, and its big men and PGs that are usually getting double doubles. They usually average in the 5-9 range of both rebounds and assists.

Hakeem's 22/11/3 career avg isn't somehow greater then Jordan's 30/6/5 just cause its a double-double.

[TAC602]

Thats really not the nature of a wing player's game though so I don't see how thats relevant. They usually average more assists then big men and more rebounds then PGs, and its big men and PGs that are usually getting double doubles. They usually average in the 5-9 range of both rebounds and assists.

Hakeem's 22/11/3 career avg isn't somehow greater then Jordan's 30/6/5 just cause its a double-double.

It's also not in a wing player's nature to exert more impact on a game over an elite center or forward. In this case, I'm referencing the likes of Top 10 material, not mere run of the mill all-stars. Jordan was one of a kind special and to really bury the argument you'd bring up his superior ability to take over down the stretch. I'm talking about the radical fanboys who honestly believe some of the most dominant players ever are nowhere in his class as far as impact over 48 minutes. Just from browsing this forum for two months, neither Da Realist or you fit that category.

[DuMa]

this thread needs more tmac games. some of the first round games he had were amazing and still lost.

[TAC602]

this thread needs more tmac games. some of the first round games he had were amazing and still lost.

It's almost tragic he never won so much as a playoff series. He had several spectacular performances, indeed.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah, I didn't want to come off looking like I was making excuses for him because there were aspects of the game he hadn't mastered, another being focus. Olajuwon seemed to have a temper on him before he renewed his faith, even infamously getting thrown out of the close out game against the Lakers in the WCF as I'm sure most people are aware. What's funny though is Sampson probably would've been ejected before that hadn't Olajuwon intervened. I think his talent and impact even early on was proven by taking down the Showtime Lakers (how many teams won a playoff series against them between 1984-88 other than the Celtics?) and stretching the '86 Celtics to six games. One can only wonder if Olajuwon's cast hadn't been reduced to shambles so quickly.

Oh, I actually was kind of making an excuse for Hakeem myself. Because those offenses were really poor, and not because of him. The spacing was awful, same with the perimeter player's shot selection.

And yeah, considering what we saw out of him even early on, you have to wonder what he could've done with more help earlier. And even that '86 run was amazing for more reasons than simply beating LA and challenging arguably the GOAT team in the finals.

John Lucas had been suspended leaving them without their PG. Ralph Sampson was inconsistent and I really question his mental toughness. Dream seemed ready in big games, I'm not so sure about Sampson.

They really relied on Dream a lot, and he delivered, despite being a second year player who had just started playing in his mid teens. For example, look at game 5 with Houston facing elimination. Sampson was ejected early and Hakeem had a monster game. Something like 25/13/8, iirc.

Then in game 6 vs Seattle the following year, he just put them on his back, the statline speaks for itself, but it's even more amazing watching the game. Houston also got screwed when a blatant goaltend wasn't called late in regulation, Dream hit both free throws, but he would've had a chance for a 3 point play if the call had been made correctly. Then late in OT, Sampson had a chance to put Houston up 1, but missed one of his free throws.

Haven't seen the '88 series vs Dallas, but it's tough to imagine how a guy could put up numbers like that and lose, I seriously doubt he had much help in that series.

[Da_Realist]

Surprised no one's mentioned how effing quick KJ was in that game I posted. Cleveland had this guy sitting on the bench before trading him to Phoenix...

[TAC602]

Oh, I actually was kind of making an excuse for Hakeem myself. Because those offenses were really poor, and not because of him. The spacing was awful, same with the perimeter player's shot selection.

And yeah, considering what we saw out of him even early on, you have to wonder what he could've done with more help earlier. And even that '86 run was amazing for more reasons than simply beating LA and challenging arguably the GOAT team in the finals.

John Lucas had been suspended leaving them without their PG. Ralph Sampson was inconsistent and I really question his mental toughness. Dream seemed ready in big games, I'm not so sure about Sampson.

They really relied on Dream a lot, and he delivered, despite being a second year player who had just started playing in his mid teens. For example, look at game 5 with Houston facing elimination. Sampson was ejected early and Hakeem had a monster game. Something like 25/13/8, iirc.

Then in game 6 vs Seattle the following year, he just put them on his back, the statline speaks for itself, but it's even more amazing watching the game. Houston also got screwed when a blatant goaltend wasn't called late in regulation, Dream hit both free throws, but he would've had a chance for a 3 point play if the call had been made correctly. Then late in OT, Sampson had a chance to put Houston up 1, but missed one of his free throws.

Haven't seen the '88 series vs Dallas, but it's tough to imagine how a guy could put up numbers like that and lose, I seriously doubt he had much help in that series.

Great points, all-around. Nothing to add.

That could make for an interesting thread down the road itself. Playoff Series that were miraculous but came in losing efforts. Hakeem's Dallas series would be up there, probably several of Kareem's from the 70s, a cluster of Jordan's before he got the Bulls over the hump..

[TAC602]

Surprised no one's mentioned how effing quick KJ was in that game I posted. Cleveland had this guy sitting on the bench before trading him to Phoenix...

Is Kenny Smith's defense that bad, or is Kevin Johnson that good?

[Jacks3]

...who said you were bothering me? It was a genuine inquiry. Relax, internet tough guy.

I'm totally relaxed son.

[Da_Realist]

Is Kenny Smith's defense that bad, or is Kevin Johnson that good?

Oh he got Cassell a few times too. I always liked Kenny but he was WAY overmatched here.

[Da_Realist]

1994 John Starks vs Rockets Finals Game 6
27 pts (16 in the 4th Q), 8 asts

[TAC602]

John Starks vs Rockets 1994 Game 6
27 pts (16 in the 4th Q), 8 asts

Starks was like but then Dream was like

But yeah, hell of an effort indeed.

[Da_Realist]

Starks was like but then Dream was like

But yeah, hell of an effort indeed.

There's not much more I can say about Hakeem. Dude was flat out amazing on both sides of the ball. He made two defensive plays near the end of this game that saved their season. The block on Starks 3 and the steal just before that. I've seen him make clutch play after clutch play after clutch play in big games. I didn't see Kareem, Wilt and Russell in their primes but in an all time draft of centers, I would take Hakeem first.

[Da_Realist]

For all those people bitching about MJ's pushoff against Utah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRURjzNtbrA#t=14m20s

[Da_Realist]

1988 John Stockton vs Lakers WCSF Game 5
23 pts, 24 asts, 5 stls