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Old 04-22-2015, 04:31 PM   #61
bizil
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Default Re: Why is Isiah Thomas seemingly so underrated??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrofir
These are all great players we are talking about here. What you say looks reasonable enough on paper, but it's so easy to forget, and as a huge Nash fan it's quite easy for me to remember... takeover scoring, floor general, grittiness, etc.....

Prime Nash against Dallas, postseason of MVP season #1:

game 4 - 48 points, 5reb, 5 assist on 20-28 shooting
game 5 - 34 points, 13reb, 12 assists on 13-26 shooting
game 6 - 39 points, 12 assist, 9 rebounds, on 14-24 shooting, including game tying 3 pointer with 5 seconds left to force overtime, which the Suns won


I'm not taking anything away from Isiah, merely pointing out that we are talking about all time greats here. They all have moments of transcendence.

People also forget that Nash finished 2nd in MVP voting the year after his 2nd mvp -- he almost won 3 straight MVPs.


Isiah Thomas was a very good passer but he's just not on the same level as Stockton and Nash in that category. His raw assist numbers were lower, but more telling -- his assist to turnover ratio was SURELY much worse than Nash and Stockton. I'm not even looking that one up, I'm so confident it is true. These guys are all great great players, but it's good to be selective in how we compare them. You can't just go around saying Isiah Thomas was an equally effective passer as John Stockton just because Thomas was a very good passer. And you can't really say Isiah Thomas had the scoring ability of Allen Iverson when he was a very good scorer -- Allen Iverson was the best scoring little guy in NBA history. You're not off by a mile, but the hyperbole doesn't do us any favors.

Pure scoring -- Isiah > Nash > Stockton
Shooting -- Nash > Stockton >>> Isiah
Passing -- Stockton = Nash > Isiah
Big game performances -- Isiah > Nash > Stockton
Longevity -- Stockton > Nash > Isiah
Defense -- Stockton > Isiah >> Nash
Success in Prime, individual and team -- Isiah > Nash > Stockton
Leadership - imo, = = =, totally different styles

Award 1 point for 1st place, 2 for 2nd, 3 for 3rd, with lower numbers being better:

Stockton - 13
Isiah - 14
Nash - 13

It's a total tossup.

GOAT wise, Stockton and Nash have NO CASE over Isiah at all. Peak wise, I prefer Isiah to both as well. It's no tossup either. I think it's CLEAR AS DAY! Isiah was a better defender than Nash ever was. And a better scorer than Stockton ever was. Isiah was simply more of total package at PG. And besides AI and Tiny the most lethal scoring small guard (6'1 and under) of all time!

When it comes to passing, Isiah had the single season assist record at 13.9 until Stock broke it. So it's NOT A STRETCH to say Isiah was just as good of a passer. Isiah was flat out A GREAT PASSER!! And not just a very good one!

U also have to factor WHO Nash and Stockton were passing to. As well as the systems they ran. Stockton had a big man beast in Karl Malone for 15 years to pass to. Which is something Isiah NEVER had! Nash had an innovative offensive system GEARED to score a lot of points. That's why I said the passing was close and they are all on the same level.

And finally, Isiah's scoring ability was ON PAR with AI! I'm not saying better. The difference is that Isiah was a pass first PG who looked to be a QB first. But at the drop of hat, he could dominate a game scoring the rock. And if u WERE to mix AI and Stockton in a blender u would get Isiah Thomas.
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Old 04-22-2015, 04:59 PM   #62
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Default Re: Why is Isiah Thomas seemingly so underrated??

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Originally Posted by SHAQisGOAT
I'd probably have him as my 3rd all-time GOAT PG, below Magic and Oscar. Still have dudes like Frazier (very underrated as well) or Stockton though.
Think he falls top30 or so on my all-time list too.

I agree! Two PG's that standout in their own way are Payton and Frazier. At 6'4, they were great defenders, great passers, and alpha dog scorers. Plus they could defend PG, SG, and many SF's. In the all around sense (passing, scoring, defense as a package), I think they are the two best PG's of all time. So because of that, I could see people arguing them over Isiah peak wise. GOAT wise, I think Frazier is in the top five while GP is in the top ten.
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Old 04-22-2015, 05:48 PM   #63
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Default Re: Why is Isiah Thomas seemingly so underrated??

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIZARRO
Somebody posts this:
Hes overrated lucky he played on one of the most stacked and GOAT defenses. Its arguably he wasnt even the best Piston during their best days

PGs that were better

Magic
Oscar
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Payton

Then Zeke or KJ........Peak Penny and Baron were better too.



And you post wow...wow....

Which I totally get if it is in response to Kidd or peak Baron being better than Isiah.....which is totally ridiculous....


However, it IS arguable that he was the best Piston during their championship years....Joe D has a Finals MVP too....He basically scored the same as Isiah with a much higher shooting %.....AND he was All NBA 1st team D....Which is a huge deal when comparing the two...

I watched both at that time (as a Bulls fan playing them) and Joe D was basically the equal of Isiah the championship years, and he was a killer....

I'll still take Zeke those two years for his clutch sometimes magical level he could get to....But it's close, real close....

Quite honestly, Joe D is the one who should have a thread on ISH about being underrated, and this thread proves it...

So this shows you didn't watch the finals Joe won the FMVP much. The Pistons ATTACKED Magic Johnson because of his pathetic defense. Whoever MJ was guarding, thats who they went to. Guess who drew Magic Johnson?

JOE DUMARS. So they continually went to Joe D because Magic couldn't handle him.

This would have been anybody Magic was guarding. You look at stats. I watched the game.
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Old 04-22-2015, 09:27 PM   #64
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Default Re: Why is Isiah Thomas seemingly so underrated??

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizil
GOAT wise, Stockton and Nash have NO CASE over Isiah at all. Peak wise, I prefer Isiah to both as well. It's no tossup either. I think it's CLEAR AS DAY! Isiah was a better defender than Nash ever was. And a better scorer than Stockton ever was. Isiah was simply more of total package at PG. And besides AI and Tiny the most lethal scoring small guard (6'1 and under) of all time!

When it comes to passing, Isiah had the single season assist record at 13.9 until Stock broke it. So it's NOT A STRETCH to say Isiah was just as good of a passer. Isiah was flat out A GREAT PASSER!! And not just a very good one!

U also have to factor WHO Nash and Stockton were passing to. As well as the systems they ran. Stockton had a big man beast in Karl Malone for 15 years to pass to. Which is something Isiah NEVER had! Nash had an innovative offensive system GEARED to score a lot of points. That's why I said the passing was close and they are all on the same level.

And finally, Isiah's scoring ability was ON PAR with AI! I'm not saying better. The difference is that Isiah was a pass first PG who looked to be a QB first. But at the drop of hat, he could dominate a game scoring the rock. And if u WERE to mix AI and Stockton in a blender u would get Isiah Thomas.


I don't agree with you, I feel like you're exaggerating ever so slightly and that's enough to make all the difference.. If I want someone to post 30ppg I'm picking AI over Isiah every single time. Both Stockton and Nash were far more efficient shooters than Isiah and that is pretty indisputable. We never saw what would happen if someone like Nash decided to be a volume scorer, except for briefly in that series against Dallas when they dared him to. But I'm pretty confident that both Stockton and Nash could score right around 20-22ppg with Isiah if they had to. If we're talking about supporting casts, I think Isiah had the best. Their 88 team especially was solidly 10 deep, all legitimately good players. Nash would have killed to have 8.

As a huge Nash fan, one thing that I can say is I don't think the stats show his full impact on the game. If there was such a thing as an assisted assist, I think Nash would be near the top of the all time leaderboard there too. The way his presence seemed to instantly open up the offense to everyone was just uncanny -- I've been watching basketball for a while and I've never seen a player who had that kind of impact on other players. That to me is the definition of what a point guard should do on offense, so I consider Nash the best offensive point guard of all time.

All that said, these discussions are cool when it turns into a celebration of great players. No matter where you side -- this thread has been great because people are passionately defending their point of view with facts and details that help us remember the great ones.

Repped, and I'll try to remember to rep some others as well.


Also, if you put two people in a blender you're going to end up with a bloody mess.
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Old 04-22-2015, 09:30 PM   #65
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Default Re: Why is Isiah Thomas seemingly so underrated??



Unparalleled offensive impact.
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Old 04-22-2015, 09:40 PM   #66
Dro
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Default Re: Why is Isiah Thomas seemingly so underrated??

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Originally Posted by Hamtaro CP3KDKG
Hes overrated lucky he played on one of the most stacked and GOAT defenses. Its arguably he wasnt even the best Piston during their best days

PGs that were better

Magic
Oscar
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Payton

Then Zeke or KJ........Peak Penny and Baron were better too.


No, just no. Stop disrespecting that man like that. Baron Davis not better than ****ing Isaiah Thomas and you know it. Baron Davis is underrated too...
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Old 04-22-2015, 10:12 PM   #67
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Default Re: Why is Isiah Thomas seemingly so underrated??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrofir
I don't agree with you, I feel like you're exaggerating ever so slightly and that's enough to make all the difference.. If I want someone to post 30ppg I'm picking AI over Isiah every single time. Both Stockton and Nash were far more efficient shooters than Isiah and that is pretty indisputable. We never saw what would happen if someone like Nash decided to be a volume scorer, except for briefly in that series against Dallas when they dared him to. But I'm pretty confident that both Stockton and Nash could score right around 20-22ppg with Isiah if they had to. If we're talking about supporting casts, I think Isiah had the best. Their 88 team especially was solidly 10 deep, all legitimately good players. Nash would have killed to have 8.

As a huge Nash fan, one thing that I can say is I don't think the stats show his full impact on the game. If there was such a thing as an assisted assist, I think Nash would be near the top of the all time leaderboard there too. The way his presence seemed to instantly open up the offense to everyone was just uncanny -- I've been watching basketball for a while and I've never seen a player who had that kind of impact on other players. That to me is the definition of what a point guard should do on offense, so I consider Nash the best offensive point guard of all time.

All that said, these discussions are cool when it turns into a celebration of great players. No matter where you side -- this thread has been great because people are passionately defending their point of view with facts and details that help us remember the great ones.

Repped, and I'll try to remember to rep some others as well.


Also, if you put two people in a blender you're going to end up with a bloody mess.

Well said! When it comes to Nash, he combined shooting, passing, and handles better than ANY PG EVER until Steph Curry came around. Isiah and Nash are both pass first PG's who have alpha dog level scoring ability. Both proved it during their careers. But I just prefer Isiah's speed and defensive ability over Nash. Those are the tiebreakers when comparing them peak wise.

When it comes to AI vs. Isiah, I'm fine if people think AI is the better scorer. AI redefined the game being an undersized SG. The score first PG's u see today are a reflection of what AI did in many ways.

With that said, Isiah was capable of dominating scoring on AI's level. Isiah could have redefined the SG position in the 80's if he wanted to. They could have EASILY put Dumars at PG full time and let Isiah wreak havoc.

BUT Isiah was a pass first PG who could ALSO DOMINATE scoring. When a guy thinks like that, he's better off at the PG. U can play puppet master in an EPIC way when u think like that.

If u asked NBA execs in the late 80's to name the top three alpha dog scoring guards in the league, they would tell u MJ, Magic, and Isiah. Even though Magic and Isiah were pass first PG's EVERYBODY knew they could dominate a game scoring the rock.

Last edited by bizil : 04-22-2015 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 04-22-2015, 10:15 PM   #68
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Default Re: Why is Isiah Thomas seemingly so underrated??

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Originally Posted by Dro


No, just no. Stop disrespecting that man like that. Baron Davis not better than ****ing Isaiah Thomas and you know it. Baron Davis is underrated too...
PEAK Baron Davis.........not career. Isiah was never as good as 07 Biddy
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Old 04-22-2015, 10:20 PM   #69
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Default Re: Why is Isiah Thomas seemingly so underrated??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamtaro CP3KDKG
PEAK Baron Davis.........not career. Isiah was never as good as 07 Biddy

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Old 04-22-2015, 10:31 PM   #70
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Default Re: Why is Isiah Thomas seemingly so underrated??

One little fun post to prop up our perhaps underrated friend J. Stockton.

During a 5 season stretch he put up the following numbers:

ppg/apg/steals/shooting

14.7/13.8/3.0 --- 57.4!!/35.8/84
17.1/13.6/3.2 --- 53.8/24.2/86.3
17.2/14.5/2.7 --- 51.4/41.6/82
17.2/14.2/2.9 --- 50.7/34.5/83.6
15.8/13.7/3.0 --- 48.2/40.7/84


or in other words

5 consecutive seasons with roughly 14 assists per game. 400 games in a row averaging 14 assists.

400 games in a row averaging 3 steals per game.

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Old 04-22-2015, 10:32 PM   #71
Hamtaro CP3KDKG
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Default Re: Why is Isiah Thomas seemingly so underrated??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrofir
One little fun post to prop up our perhaps underrated friend J. Stockton.

During a 5 season stretch he put up the following numbers:

ppg/apg/steals/shooting

14.7/13.8/3.0 --- 57.4!!/35.8/84
17.1/13.6/3.2 --- 53.8/24.2/86.3
17.2/14.5/2.7 --- 51.4/41.6/82
17.2/14.2/2.9 --- 50.7/34.5/83.6
15.8/13.7/3.0 --- 48.2/40.7/84


or in other words

5 consecutive seasons with roughly 14 assists per game. 400 games in a row averaging 14 assists.

400 games in a row averaging 3 steals per game.

Stockton also outplayed Magic in their 88 series but nikkas never bring it up.............
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Old 04-22-2015, 10:38 PM   #72
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Default Re: Why is Isiah Thomas seemingly so underrated??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamtaro CP3KDKG
PEAK Baron Davis.........not career. Isiah was never as good as 07 Biddy

Peak Baron was more physically gifted than Isiah. And he had a better scoring skillset because he could post up and shoot better. I would even say Baron was the more effective defender. But Baron never got the most out of his ability due to injuries.

At his best, he was getting 23 points and 8 dimes. But as a total offensive player, Zeke was superior. Zeke was just as good of a scorer and a better passer. Baron falls into a "what if" category because of those injuries. Very early into his career, BD was catching that injury bug hard:

2002-2003: Played in 50 games
2003-2004: 67 games
2004-2005: 46 games
2005-2006: 54 games
2006-2007: 63 games

So the injury bug stopped Baron from even thinking about being better than Isiah. His career didn't have the arc it needed to have to better than Zeke at any point. 2007 Baron was a beast. But ITS FAR FROM THE SEASONS guys like Big O, Magic, Isiah, Nash, Tiny, etc. had. Or even guys from today like Westbrook and Curry.
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Old 04-22-2015, 11:53 PM   #73
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Default Re: Why is Isiah Thomas seemingly so underrated??

Magic
Oscar
Zeke
Walt
Kidd

top 5 of all-time pg


Zeke don't get props like that cause the bad boys were villians.
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