ESPN Ranks Kobe as 12th All TIME. Name me 11 players w/ Better Resume

[Gus Hemmingway]

17-47

PA


THE


TIC

[tmacattack33]

I'd have him 12-14. You should be slightly happy that ESPN put him on the higher end of that.

There's another bball forum out there where idiot homers get banned. Kobe is like 14th on their list.

[G-Funk]

Who's ahead of him?

Jordan
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Wilt
Russell
Shaquille
Duncan

????

[G-Funk]

Damn I just noticed they put All time defensive teams for Jerry West but not Kobe.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/...-nbarank-11-15

[Moonbeam]

It just depends on what you value. Here's a post I made on RealGM several months ago about Kobe's case for top 10.

I think Kobe's case for top 10 is one that takes accolades and titles into account more than I do. That's not to say it's unreasonable - I just don't have him there.

The number of championships a player's teams have won means little to me; my perception of the player's performance is everything. I tend to think of ranking players within a season as tantamount to considering a footrace and asking "who is the fastest runner?", but each player has a different starting point based on teammate quality, coaching, injuries, etc. Whoever crosses the finish line first by way of winning a title as a lead guy may not be the fastest runner.

If you approach it from a stats perspective, Kobe doesn't look like a strong top-10 candidate.

Career PER: 20th
Career Win Shares: 18th despite great longevity
Career WS/48: 42nd
Career Box Plus Minus (only available since 1974): 29th
Career VORP (only available since 1974): 16th

Career Playoff PER: 22nd
Career Playoff Win Shares: 8th
Career Playoff WS/48: 53rd
Career Playoff Box Plus Minus (only available since 1974): 39th
Career Playoff VORP (only available since 1974): 7th

Year by year:

Best season PER: 3rd in 2006, no other top 4 finishes
Best season Win Shares: 4th in 2006, 2007, and 2008
Best season in WS/48: 4th in 2004, no other top 5 finishes
Best season in Box Plus Minus: 5th in 2004
Best season in VORP: 3rd in 2008
Only twice in the top 10 of RAPM: 6th in 2008 and 9th in 2009

Of course the statistics don't tell us everything, and you could argue that a player's ultimate goal is to win championships, and Kobe has been excellent in this regard. In a sense, he often "did enough" for his team to win, so his statistical footprint in this regard might not be as great as someone like LeBron during the postseason in 2015, because he didn't have to individually produce as much for his team to achieve that goal.

Kobe is such a polarizing figure in part because his fan base and those who dislike him try to outdo each other to rile the other side up, it seems. I post on a Facebook page where many (perhaps even most) people have Kobe in their top 5, some as high as number 1. These fans often denigrate other great players like Duncan, LeBron, or MJ in order to prop up Kobe. As a reaction to this, you get people suggesting that "Shaq carried Kobe", laugh at the record for most missed field goals, etc. It gets to a point where you feel you have to walk on eggshells in order to have a conversation about him without inciting an angry response from someone. Honestly, I can't think of a more polarizing player, though LeBron is close.

As such, it's often fruitless to discuss Kobe's place in history. I've often been labelled as being a "hater" or "disrespectful" to Kobe for not having him in the top 10. My response to this is usually to provide a list of players I have ahead of him, which without fail draws a response of "you can't be serious - how can you have X ahead of Kobe?", to which I provide reasons for why I am high on player X and say, "why are you disrespectful of X?", but it generally stops there. Honestly, I think part of it is with the value we place in the number 10. There is something special about being "top 10" that doesn't feel the same as "top 15", even if there really isn't that big of a difference in the level of greatness in that region of the list.

I've got Kobe at 14th overall, but I could see an argument for him anywhere from 8-20 or so. If I see Kobe higher than that, I generally assume that person is a big Kobe fan, and that's ok! I think we all are prone to overvalue our favorites. I had Dantley at #45 when I made my list, and I'm sure some would balk at that. The nature of ranking players is a subjective exercise, and a lot of people take these rankings very much to heart.

[Magic 32]

Wait we care now?

[IncarceratedBob]

Today

[imnew09]

[QUOTE=IncarceratedBob]Today

[Smoke117]

Meltdown...besides you kobe stans there aren't a lot of people who are more than casual basketball fans that put Kobe top 10...that's just the way it is. The way you knuckleheads sometimes try and put him as the 2nd greatest after Jordan is just laughable.

[Kblaze8855]

John Havlicek won 8 rings 2 as his teams leader, was a 29/9/8 player in his prime, made 5-6 all D teams when it didnt exist to begin his career, and has more all nba first teams than some people ahead of him...have all star games. There are people ahead of him who never won anything and were never considered elite players. Clearly this isnt an issue of resume.

That plus the ring count will just never matter as much when you were not the best player for most of them.

Shaq gets the first 3 in the eyes of history and thats pretty much that.

We can argue what should be....not what is.

The best player gets the rings more heavily weighed. Just how it is.

[oh the horror]

Out of every single player to ever come before in the NBA, Is 12 all time really that bad?

[Magic 32]

John Havlicek won 8 rings 2 as his teams leader, was a 29/9/8 player in his prime, made 5-6 all D teams when it didnt exist to begin his career, and has more all nba first teams than some people ahead of him...have all star games. There are people ahead of him who never won anything and were never considered elite players. Clearly this isnt an issue of resume.

That plus the ring count will just never matter as much when you were not the best player for most of them.

Shaq gets the first 3 in the eyes of history and thats pretty much that.

This is ironic.

[Kblaze8855]

If Shaq had been the teams third leading scorer at the time like Dave Cowens perhaps Kobe would get more credit. But he wasnt. he was the near unquestioned best player in the world. Hondo led like 5 title teams in scoring in the playoffs. Shaq led all 3 of those Laker teams.

Besides the whole point was...Hondo doesnt get full credit.

He wasnt the most prominent guy on most of his title teams. So his resume isnt what it would be...if the rings were taken at face value. Same for Kobe.

As I said...all thats left is not liking it and arguing about if its fair.

But it is what it is. Best player on the team gets the most credit. So Kobe, Hondo, Wade and plenty of others dont get the full resume they would get if...a ring were a ring.

A ring is not a ring.

The ring a best player gets was, is, and always will be more highly regarded.

[Akhenaten]

If Shaq had been the teams third leading scorer at the time like Dave Cowens perhaps Kobe would get more credit. But he wasnt. he was the near unquestioned best player in the world. Hondo led like 5 title teams in scoring in the playoffs. Shaq led all 3 of those Laker teams.

Besides the whole point was...Hondo doesnt get full credit.

He wasnt the most prominent guy on most of his title teams. So his resume isnt what it would be...if the rings were taken at face value. Same for Kobe.

As I said...all thats left is not liking it and arguing about if its fair.

But it is what it is. Best player on the team gets the most credit. So Kobe, Hondo, Wade and plenty of others dont get the full resume they would get if...a ring were a ring.

A ring is not a ring.

The ring a best player gets was, is, and always will be more highly regarded.

This is why even though despicable what Kobe did in running Shaq out of town, it was absolutely understandable. Perception is everything, Shaq was entrenched psychologically in the public conscience as the clear cut best player on that team.

Kobe understood he would never achieve his aspirations as to how he would be regarded legacy wise and he did something about it. Dude is a super cornball but a big part of me respects immensely what he did.

[Smoke117]

This is why even though despicable what Kobe did in running Shaq out of town, it was absolutely understandle. Perception is everything, Shaq was entrenched psychologically in the public conscience as the clear cut best player on that team.

Kobe understood he would never achieve his aspirations as to how he would be regarded legacy wise and he did something about it. Dude is a super cornball but a big part of me respects immensely what he did.

The only problem with that...is that Kobe ran out a guy who was one of the three best players in the league and then when the Lakers couldn't immediately replace a guy of that levels impact...was basically demanding to be traded.