How Did Hand-check Era = Tougher D and Higher FG%??..

[Hittin_Shots]

It may impact FG%, but FG% isn't important. Points per possession is.

Your name proves you're useless.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

Bruce Blitz would end this thread.

[necya]

You're a dumbass if you can't tell by watching games that teams are taking more 3s in today's league, which, forget about handchecking and all that shit... is going to effect FG%. Straight up. It's led to a lot of lazy players that DO have bad shot selections EVEN WHEN they are shooting 2s.

great post !

look at the game, you see too much of players waiting behind the 3pts line in today's weak league. also, the paint is like a desert. just compare with a game of the 80's or 90's. today there is not battle in the paint ! it's unbelievable. 20 years ago, there were real big men playing basketball.

then, the new generation who came into the league in the 90's. they were superstars before putting their first basket in the nba, all the kobes, iverson, this crossover, and1 tapes generation who liked to hold the ball...99-04 low points come from this new style of play. the point guard walked to pass the mid court. then you can remember all those guys dribbling and dribbling, waiting nothing and finish with a one on one move. result : you have sometimes a move for the top 10 but you have 4 players who doesn't move...and people call that great basketball...

as you can see, this is the complete mind of the game who has changed along with the lost of the funds.

and for this idiot of yao ming foot, i will give you a stat who is not the result of any stupid formula you like so much.

kobe's FG% will always be weak. it's his game who is like that, he has been a ballhog for so many years, taking stupid shots. kobe has shot better than his own team like 3 times in a 14 years career. he doesn't bring efficiency to his team. all the other great used to shot better than their team. they brought efficiency. no need to to talk about MJ's...

[Poochymama]

FG% was higher because they took less threes. Shooting more threes lowers FG%, since league average for threes is usually between 33-35%.

eFG% from like 2004-2009 was as high or higher than it's ever been.

Another reason FG% was higher was because it was easier to get the ball into the post to big men. Example: DRob, Hakeem, Shaq. . .those guys all shot 50%+ and scored 25-30 PPG.

Guards weren't blowing up the league, bigs were.

This

Hasn't this been explained like 50 times? Why does it keep getting brought up?

[blablabla]

if tough d means better d than the defenses on your local court > the defenses in the nba

[Calabis]

sure it was?...i guess that's why the implemented zones to steer the league away from all the isolation that was going on?

Ever hear of Tony Parker leading the league in in-the-paint scoring...gtfoh with this zone garbage

after Rule changes 2004-2005 season as of Dec 22,2005...in the paint scoring leaders

1. Tony Parker, Spurs 328
2. Tim Duncan, Spurs 322
3. Dwyane Wade, Heat 316
4. LeBron James, Cavs 304
5. Allen Iverson, Sixers 298

Source: Elias Sports Bureau

Doesn't look like this tough and heralded zone was keeping perimeter players out of the lanes

[DMAVS41]

Ever hear of Tony Parker leading the league in in-the-paint scoring...gtfoh with this zone garbage

after Rule changes 2004-2005 season as of Dec 22,2005...in the paint scoring leaders

1. Tony Parker, Spurs 328
2. Tim Duncan, Spurs 322
3. Dwyane Wade, Heat 316
4. LeBron James, Cavs 304
5. Allen Iverson, Sixers 298

Source: Elias Sports Bureau

Doesn't look like this tough and heralded zone was keeping perimeter players out of the lanes

This topic is so tired.

Teams now play from the outside almost exclusively. They take a ton of threes now as well. Of course fg% is down. The quality of shots taken are awful and there are no good big men anymore.

The fact that the current fg% is what it is just proves how much of a joke the defensive rules are today.

How the hell can Tony Parker lead the league in points in the paint and people claim its not easier to score from the perimeter?

[jlip]

Real handchecking was eliminated in 1980 (check rules history). Wish my old computer hadn't gone dead, had lots of clips of handcheck fouls being called in the early 90s and the commentators (like Hubie Brown) saying word for word: "you can't handcheck in this league, that went out in 1980". Does it mean you couldn't actually handcheck? No, but the real handcheck (when you could literally have an affect on the player's movement) was taken out years ago, you could get away with it then just like you can get away with it now though. Anyone who watches any ball right now should know that handchecking is not regulated that tightly at all, especially in the playoffs these last couple of years (I do remember them making a point about it when the rule change first happened though).

Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)

Were defenses more physical as a whole in the 80s/early 90s? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them better. If handchecking is everything then the 70s are the GOAT defensive era and we need to start rounding down the stats of the 80s/90s players.

Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than MJ did in '92 and '93 (not to mention MJ taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.

Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right (especially with respectable mid-range Js behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?

I would like to read an intelligent rebuttal to this post.

[XxSMSxX]

if tough d means better d than the defenses on your local court > the defenses in the nba

No team defensive scheme will ever be able to compete with good old fashion hand checking. The ability to steer an offensive player will always be a better defensive option than whatever team defenses are played today. So actually yes your correct

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I would like to read an intelligent rebuttal to this post.

You won't find it on this forum. That's for sure.

[hitmanyr2k]

taking more 3s in today's league, which, forget about handchecking and all that shit... is going to effect FG%. Straight up. It's led to a lot of lazy players that DO have bad shot selections EVEN WHEN they are shooting 2s.

Derrick Rose is a prime example of this. He was a 48-49% shooter his first two years in the league when he was taking less than one 3 point attempt a game. Now that he's shooting 5 threes a game this year his percentage is down to 44%. Makes a big difference.

[Round Mound]

Jordan didn't force up as many stupid shots. That's why his FG% was so much better. If you take away all their 3pt FGAs and remove their 3pt makes from their FGs, Jordan's FG% was still much higher. 3pt shooting volume has little to do with there being a FG% difference between those two players.

2-Point FG% is much more important than 3-Point FG%: a shot of lesser importance if you view the average "whole game" under efficiency standards

[Calabis]

Dear Fatal,

According to you handchecking was eliminated in 1980...lol, please explain these players comments about Alvin Robertson who came into the league in 1984:

Brian Shaw: When I was a rookie and hand-checking was part of the game, I was 180 pounds. He was strong enough to hold me by my waist. I could be dribbling the ball and trying to make progress to the basket, and he could just control me with one hand. That's the kind of strength he had. You have to hope that one of your big guys comes over and sets a screen on him so you can get away from him.

Ron Harper: Alvin and I are both from Ohio. I used to play with him in the summertime. He's a defensive player that slaps, grabs, and holds. He's intense all the time. He was a great defensive player. Not a good defensive player, but a great defensive player. He was a great athlete. You have to use your teammates to run screens. That was the only way to beat him.

Or these comments after 2004 rule changes

One former Rocket can appreciate the hand-checking ban more than anyone.
"I call it the Derek Harper-on-Kenny Smith Rule," said Kenny Smith, referring to the physical abuse he took from the New York Knicks in the 1994 Finals. "Now we're back to me against you."

NBA.com: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

Stu Jackson: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.

Why would they be asking Stu Jackson this, if handchecking was abolished in 1980??

Doug Collins: "Without those rule changes, I'm sure we're not at this point," said the former player and coach-turned broadcaster. "Just the no hand-checking rule alone brought so much speed and penetration and cutting back into the game. Before, if a guy tried to go through the lane, it was — bam! — you stop him.

Why is Doug Collins talking about handchecking after 2004 rule changes?

Joe Johnson from the Atlanta Hawks was asked about the handchecking rule during the summer of 2010: "It benefits me," said Joe Johnson, one of three players (Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford are the others) on the Hawks' roster who have averaged 20 or more points in a season. "It definitely changes the game because it gives every guy that extra step. "If we could hand check now, the game would be totally different," Johnson said. "If they couldn't hand check back in the day, there are some guys that would have been even better than they were. It would have been nuts for some of the big-time scorers and perimeter players from the 1980s and 1990s. Can you imagine what [Michael] Jordan would have done in a league where you couldn't hand check."

Why is a current player referring to handchecking in the 80's and 90's, why does he assume the game would be a lot different?

"The game has changed big-time,” said Dallas point guard Jason Kidd . "When I came in you could hand check and hold a little bit. You could definitely be more physical with the ball-handlers.

Why is Jason Kidd talking about handchecking??

"The first year, they took my hand check away," Rivers recalled. "The next year, they took our forearm away. And then, I retired. I was done. I was like, 'I've got to move my feet? I quit. This is no fun anymore.'"

For 13 seasons, Rivers made a very good living in the NBA as one of the league's best on-ball defenders. Tall (6-foot-4) and strong, able to use his hands to steer opponents away from the basket, able to clip guards moving without the ball from their desired routes around the court. But the style that helped his Hawks teams get to the Playoffs and that put his 1994 New York Knicks team in the Finals is now a relic, consigned to the basement in Pat Riley's head.

Why is Doc Rivers talking about handchecking in 94, if it was banned in 1980??

[XxSMSxX]

[QUOTE=Calabis]Dear Fatal,

According to you handchecking was eliminated in 1980...lol, please explain these players comments about Alvin Robertson who came into the league in 1984:

Brian Shaw: When I was a rookie and hand-checking was part of the game, I was 180 pounds. He was strong enough to hold me by my waist. I could be dribbling the ball and trying to make progress to the basket, and he could just control me with one hand. That's the kind of strength he had. You have to hope that one of your big guys comes over and sets a screen on him so you can get away from him.

Ron Harper: Alvin and I are both from Ohio. I used to play with him in the summertime. He's a defensive player that slaps, grabs, and holds. He's intense all the time. He was a great defensive player. Not a good defensive player, but a great defensive player. He was a great athlete. You have to use your teammates to run screens. That was the only way to beat him.

Or these comments after 2004 rule changes

One former Rocket can appreciate the hand-checking ban more than anyone.
"I call it the Derek Harper-on-Kenny Smith Rule," said Kenny Smith, referring to the physical abuse he took from the New York Knicks in the 1994 Finals. "Now we're back to me against you."

NBA.com: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

Stu Jackson: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.

Why would they be asking Stu Jackson this, if handchecking was abolished in 1980??

Doug Collins: "Without those rule changes, I'm sure we're not at this point," said the former player and coach-turned broadcaster. [B]"Just the no hand-checking rule alone brought so much speed and penetration and cutting back into the game. Before, if a guy tried to go through the lane, it was

[necya]

is fatal the one who has a kobe tatoo on his arm?