Averaging a triple double in the finals: will it ever be done and who came close

[madmax]

Lebron is gonna do it, maybe even this year with a capable teammates arround him

[Bodhi]

Another Jordan fan who did not watch Pippen in Portland, where he had his best season in terms of assists at 70 years old, although his raw numbers were down due to less minutes and pace. In percentage of a team's assists he accounted for he had his best season there; in terms of assists per 36 minutes he tied what he did at age 26. Adjusting for pace (89.3 versus 94.4), minutes his best season regarding assists came in 2002, not 1992.

But in the year the Blazers actually contended, Pippen's assists did not noticeably change. It took the Blazers falling out of contention for Pippen's assists to rise. Everyone can bring up numbers that contradict the others point. I don't think there's good proof either way.

[Roundball_Rock]

But in the year the Blazers actually contended, Pippen's assists did not noticeably change. It took the Blazers falling out of contention for Pippen's assists to rise. Everyone can bring up numbers that contradict the others point. I don't think there's good proof either way.

No, it took Pippen being inserted as the full-time PG (second half of 2002 and 2003) for his assists to rise. He shared playmaking duties with Stoudamire in 2000. What is the argument here? He averaged 5.0 while sharing those duties in 00'. Ok. That means he would have averaged even more had he been the full-time primary playmaker on that team. (the reason Pip was made the PG was Pippen was a pass first, make my teammates better guy...)

How about Houston? He left Mikey and his assists increased, albeit by only a tenth. How can this be, though, if he was getting system and Mikey assists?

Regarding contention, look at Portland's record in 2002 and 2003 with Pippen as PG (top 5 record-wise in the league). Too bad Pippen got hurt at the end of the 03' season. They were rolling at 38-16 with him at PG (38-16=58 wins over 82 games), after starting the season 3-6 before he became the PG. When he got hurt they went 8-9 and Pip never recovered, although he did have one more clutch 4th quarter fresh off riding a bike for much of the game to lead a come from behind win to stave off elimination in Game 5. Technically, though, you are correct. It took Portland sucking for Pippen to be made the PG and a consequence of that was a rise in his assists.

[Bodhi]

No, it took Pippen being inserted as the full-time PG (second half of 2002 and 2003) for his assists to rise. He shared playmaking duties with Stoudamire in 2000. What is the argument here? He averaged 5.0 while sharing those duties in 00'. Ok. That means he would have averaged even more had he been the full-time primary playmaker on that team. (the reason Pip was made the PG was Pippen was a pass first, make my teammates better guy...)

Okay in 2003 Scottie Pippen averaged very few assists so I'm not sure how they rose when he played pg and in 2002 I looked at his splits and I'm not sure when he started playing PG but it didn't make a difference on his assists.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/splits/2002/

How about Houston? He left Mikey and his assists increased, albeit by only a tenth. How can this be, though, if he was getting system and Mikey assists?.

Okay, this is perfectly fair, I wasn't the one that said that the system is what got Pippen assists. However I do agree that playing in the triangle would not have hindered his assists the same way it hindered Jordan and Kobe. Jordan's assists dropped from 8 to 6.3 when the Bulls picked up the triangle whereas Pippen's didn't noticably change when he played in a different system.

Remember, you claimed that everyone could agree at Pippen's assists would rise by 1.5 outside of the triangle.

Regarding contention, look at Portland's record in 2002 and 2003 with Pippen as PG (top 5 record-wise in the league). Too bad Pippen got hurt at the end of the 03' season. They were rolling at 38-16 with him at PG (38-16=58 wins over 82 games), after starting the season 3-6 before he became the PG. When he got hurt they went 8-9 and Pip never recovered, although he did have one more clutch 4th quarter to lead a come from behind win to stave off elimination in Game 5.

Exactly, they contended in 2003 and his assists dropped.

And I don't care nearly enough about about Pippen and Jordan to reply after this.

[Roundball_Rock]

Okay in 2003 Scottie Pippen averaged very few assists so I'm not sure how they rose when he played pg and in 2002

5.0 (2000)
4.6
5.9
4.5

Per 36 minutes: 5.3, 5.0, 6.5, 5.4

Why the big jump in 2002? Did he become a better passer than he ever was at age 36? Or was he getting more easy assists via 36 year old speed penetration?

Jordan's assists dropped from 8 to 6.3 when the Bulls picked up the triangle

You are ignoring roles again. He averaged 8 as PG. Of course his assists would decline when he was again playing SG and sharing more of the playmaking duties with another player (Pippen).

Exactly, they contended in 2003 and his assists dropped.

?

Their record with him in 02' (39-21, good enough for #5 in the L over 82 games) was on par with their record with him in 03'. I fail to see what connection contention has here.

In 2002 he became the PG around mid-season. What was Portland's record in the first half of the season? 25-23. What did they do in the second half? 24-10.

And I don't care nearly enough about any of the players involved to reply after this.

Fair enough. It is a shame another thread had to be tainted by the MJ agenda. I am more responding to that than you per se since a lot of people here buy the myths bitter fans of a certain retired player are selling on Pippen, even if they are flat out absurd like the one in this thread. What is your argument, though?

*Pippen was the one player whose assists were INFLATED by the triangle? Jordan, Kobe, BJ Armstrong, Kukoc, Derek Fisher and Lamar Odom all averaged more assists outside the triangle. So did Pippen (adjusting for pace and minutes--never mind looking at injuries, age, etc.), but we are in the land of Jordanian make believe so we are pretending Portland never happened. Who got in the triangle and suddenly began having career years in assists?

*Pippen was somehow stat-whoring assists at the expense of his team, even though the clear trend in his career is the more he had the ball the better his teams did?

The bottom line is this discussion should not be happening if the claims made by OSB are accurate. His assists should have plummeted without Mikey and then plummeted even more without both Mikey and the triangle.

You are comparing his numbers at face value while ignoring age, injuries, pace, and roles. To sum it up: his best passing season came at age 36 as PG outside the triangle and when Mikey was in Washington. If he did that well at age 36 and after half a dozen surgeries common sense dictates that had he played in that offensive scheme while in his prime he would have averaged more assists. It is easier to make plays as a 20+ ppg scorer than it is as a 11 ppg guy. Pip got a lot of assists via penetration and kicking the ball out to an open man. He wasn't exactly blazing fast or amazing athletically by age 36.

Remember, you claimed that everyone could agree at Pippen's assists would rise by 1.5 outside of the triangle.

That was from another thread and I was referring to OSB--Jordan's biggest fan/Pippen's biggest detractor--saying Pippen could average 8.5 assists a few times outside the triangle. Obviously a statement like that assumes he is in his prime, has the same offensive role he had in Chicago or in Portland in 2002 and 2003, etc. Pippen in 99' was hardly the same player as Pippen in 98' due to a devastating back injury (just ask Pip himself) nor did he have the same role in Houston's offense that he had in Chicago. He was the primary playmaker but that was it. He was used primarily as a spot up shooter in Houston's interior oriented offense. Given how he got a lot of his assists and his injury, comparing his Houston numbers is a poor comparison. Still, the fact that his assists actually rose is very telling. He was an inferior player, had less opportunities with the ball, yet averaged more assists outside the triangle and without Mikey?

playing in the triangle would not have hindered his assists the same way it hindered Jordan and Kobe.

Kobe's career high in assists is 6.0; his career high in the triangle is 5.9. The year Jackson and the triangle left his assists rose from 5.1 to 6.0. It isn't as if his assists dramatically increased. What hindered Kobe and Jordan's assists is shooting 25-30 times every single night.

A related trivia question

Who led the Dream Team in assists?

A) Clyde Drexler
B) Magic Johnson
C) Michael Jordan
D) Scottie Pippen

[Fatal9]

at system assists. wow. did you ever pay attention to Pippen at all? Pippen's role, as well as the role of ANY primary ballhandler/playmaker in the triangle, is to initiate the ball movement, not collect assists. The triangle is not a one pass system (ie. primary playmaker dumps off ball and someone shoots). Pippen would usually be the first or second passer in the "system", not the last. He actually has had more "hockey assists" than real assists, because of his role in the triangle. No need to underrate his passing skills. Pippen was an excellent penetrate and kick type of passer, and his interior passing game was good too. Combine that with his unselfishness, which naturally gives you more assists, and then put him in a system with less ball movement, there is no reason he can't average 9 assists a game for a season.

[ShaqAttack3234]

at system assists. wow. did you ever pay attention to Pippen at all? Pippen's role, as well as the role of ANY primary ballhandler/playmaker in the triangle, is to initiate the ball movement, not collect assists. The triangle is not a one pass system (ie. primary playmaker dumps off ball and someone shoots). Pippen would usually be the first or second passer in the "system", not the last. He actually has had more "hockey assists" than real assists, because of his role in the triangle. No need to underrate his passing skills. Pippen was an excellent penetrate and kick type of passer, and his interior passing game was good too. Combine that with his unselfishness, which naturally gives you more assists, and then put him in a system with less ball movement, there is no reason he can't average 9 assists a game for a season.

Well said. Pippen was one of the best passing/playmaking forwards ever.

[branslowski]

Atleast Loki did a great job in hiding his agenda....


Im also pretty sure that LeBron can do this.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Wilt

19/28.5/7

During the 1967 playoffs:

Averaged 22 points, 29 rebounds, 9 assists, shooting 58% from the field, 39% from the FT line, while playing 48 minutes per game.

[GiveItToBurrito]

Rondo could do it if he's being guarded by Fisher. Lebron could do it depending on matchups; against LA no, but he could put up 30 10 and 10 against Dallas or Denver, especially if he plays 45+ minutes.

[Jasper]

i was surprised about Clyde frazier .. saw those games , and it sure didn't seem like he did everything

I think Pip could of , but the extra board or assist was just missed.

Kuddo's to Majic - his height , ball handles all were on his side for the best chance.

I'd say if the right consequences in a series and team , I'd think Bron has a shot at it.

[OldSchoolBBall]

and then put him in a system with less ball movement, there is no reason he can't average 9 assists a game for a season.

Did you mean series, not season? Because lol if not.

5.0 (2000)
4.6
5.9
4.5

Per 36 minutes: 5.3, 5.0, 6.5, 5.4

Why the big jump in 2002? Did he become a better passer than he ever was at age 36? Or was he getting more easy assists via 36 year old speed penetration?

He was averaging 10 ppg at that point of his career, so of course his assists are going to go up. It's a very different thing to average 20-23 ppg and 9.5 apg than it is to average 10 ppg and 9.5 apg. If you want to assert that '92-'96 Pippen could have averaged 9.5 apg over a series while averaging 10-15 ppg (not 20-25), I'll agree with you.

[Fatal9]

Did you mean series, not season?

no, season. already averaged 7 assists within the triangle. and he can average at least 1.5 more if he was on a faster team that exploited his open court game/passing even more, and one that relied on him penetrating then kicking out to shooters (like current Cavs). depending on the system, Pippen is capable of anything from 20/10/9 to 22/9/6 to 24/8/5, all on 49-51% while being a defensive force.

[OldSchoolBBall]

no, season. already averaged 7 assists within the triangle. and he can average at least 1.5 more if he was on a faster team that exploited his open court game/passing even more, and one that relied on him penetrating then kicking out to shooters (like current Cavs). depending on the system, Pippen is capable of anything from 20/10/9 to 22/9/6 to 24/8/5, all on 49-51% while being a defensive force.

[Disaprine]

During the 1967 playoffs:

Averaged 22 points, 29 rebounds, 9 assists, shooting 58% from the field, 39% from the FT line, while playing 48 minutes per game.

wow