Bigger.Faster.Stronger

[90sgoat]

I always wondered something about the people who constantly chime in with steroids comments: you fellas truly think if there are steroids in the league (which I can't argue for or against honestly, but wouldn't be surprised) that they just became available yesterday? The 90's era had some of the biggest bodybuilder looking players in nba history, wilt lifted with the terminator, etc. Every single sport was in the midst of steroids during that time period. What makes our league so special besides not digging for them as they still do to this day? Let's not be silly here folks.

On topic, I don't think the issue was ever that elite athletes today are on average better than those of the past. It's that on average the overall athletic level is higher today. More elite athletes, higher general level of athleticism.

For sure there are A LOT of steroids in the league and well, every American sport, because the US drug testing agency is a joke.

You're right, steroids were already widespread among Sovjet olympic lifters in the 50s to 60s, maybe even before and by the 70s they were well known and widespread. I am sure Wilt was on steroids in his later career as he was massive and worked out with Arnie who was of course a user.

As I understand it, the widespread NBA use began in the latter 80s, so yeah Jordan, Barkley all those guys probably used at some point.

Here's the thing, it is well known that Ben Johnson was a doper, but Carl Lewis was too, yet they don't look anywhere near the freak athletes in athletics today. That's not because today's athletes are some biological new breed, but because dosage is higher and they have much, much more effective cycles. This is the same with the NBA I think. Most of superior athleticism is simply doping.

Obviously Karl Malone, Mason, Rodman, those guys are suspect.

The thing is with doping, there are clear tells, a basketball player should not have massive deltoids (outer shoulder muscles) like Dwight. In fact, massive deltoids are a clear sign of doping as these are incredibly difficult to grow even for serious bodybuilders.

I just wonder, why if sport is so advanced do those old records still hold? My guess is that by the late 80s sport science had in fact already pushed the human body almost as far as is humanly possible.

I will say that there is now a stronger focus on athletes over skills, you have to, because no one has good skills coming into the league anymore, so you draft on athletics. That's why you have a lot of dumb ass athletes like Javale and so on.

In the 80s there were quite a few 'stiffs' but I would say that was as much about the role they played as big men.

I am really not sure this small increase in pure natural athleticism really means much in basketball, again this is a game, not athletics.

What matters is that for every athletic superstar today I can pick someone just as athletic from the 90s. You say Blake Griffin I say Shawn Kemp. You say Nate Robinson I say Spudd Webb, you say Dwight Howard I say David Robinson, you say Westbrook I say MJ, you say PG I say Dominique. You say Wade I say Drexler. Lebron? I say Barkley. I really do not see an athletic edge on the star level.

[ShawkFactory]

For sure there are A LOT of steroids in the league and well, every American sport, because the US drug testing agency is a joke.

You're right, steroids were already widespread among Sovjet olympic lifters in the 50s to 60s, maybe even before and by the 70s they were well known and widespread. I am sure Wilt was on steroids in his later career as he was massive and worked out with Arnie who was of course a user.

As I understand it, the widespread NBA use began in the latter 80s, so yeah Jordan, Barkley all those guys probably used at some point.

Here's the thing, it is well known that Ben Johnson was a doper, but Carl Lewis was too, yet they don't look anywhere near the freak athletes in athletics today. That's not because today's athletes are some biological new breed, but because dosage is higher and they have much, much more effective cycles. This is the same with the NBA I think. Most of superior athleticism is simply doping.

Obviously Karl Malone, Mason, Rodman, those guys are suspect.

The thing is with doping, there are clear tells, a basketball player should not have massive deltoids (outer shoulder muscles) like Dwight. In fact, massive deltoids are a clear sign of doping as these are incredibly difficult to grow even for serious bodybuilders.

I just wonder, why if sport is so advanced do those old records still hold? My guess is that by the late 80s sport science had in fact already pushed the human body almost as far as is humanly possible.

I will say that there is now a stronger focus on athletes over skills, you have to, because no one has good skills coming into the league anymore, so you draft on athletics. That's why you have a lot of dumb ass athletes like Javale and so on.

In the 80s there were quite a few 'stiffs' but I would say that was as much about the role they played as big men.

I am really not sure this small increase in pure natural athleticism really means much in basketball, again this is a game, not athletics.

What matters is that for every athletic superstar today I can pick someone just as athletic from the 90s. You say Blake Griffin I say Shawn Kemp. You say Nate Robinson I say Spudd Webb, you say Dwight Howard I say David Robinson, you say Westbrook I say MJ, you say PG I say Dominique. You say Wade I say Drexler. Lebron? I say Barkley. I really do not see an athletic edge on the star level.

That's the point being made though. On the star level there is no edge. The league as a whole? You'd have a difficult time convincing someone that the average player in the league was as athletic in the 60s/70s as they are now.

And just no to the bolded...come on now.

[TomBrady]

Bo Jackson was a greater athlete than every name you listed. Records mean nothing.

[90sgoat]

That's the point being made though. On the star level there is no edge. The league as a whole? You'd have a difficult time convincing someone that the average player in the league was as athletic in the 60s/70s as they are now.

And just no to the bolded...come on now.

See this is the problem I have with newer fans.

Barkley not as athletic as Lebron?

That fat ass was maybe the best rebounder of all time (at least 2nd) at 6'6''. He had insane jumping ability and strength. In his Philly days he went coast to coast for thunderous slams.

Again, Lebron might jump higher and from further distance off one leg, but he can barely even dunk off two legs. Barkley could explode and dunk with no space from very little distance, Lebron simply can't do that. Barkley was strong as an ox, pushing huge 7 foot centers out of the way for rebounds.

How is that not incredible athleticism?

[90sgoat]

Bo Jackson was a greater athlete than every name you listed. Records mean nothing.

Lol. Athletics is the most competitive sport there is. Victory is decided by inches and miliseconds. Those records are the hardest records to beat in sports.

[dhsilv]

Drug use is likely going down or more likely the power is going down to beat tests at the Olympic level.

Basketball however is getting better.



Now, keep in mind the bigger faster and stronger is not saying at each extreme they are getting better, but that the populate as a whole is trending that way. If the average (not the elite) are bigger, faster, and stronger that is far far more meaningful than the extreme tail ends of the bell curve.

[TomBrady]

Lol. Athletics is the most competitive sport there is. Victory is decided by inches and miliseconds. Those records are the hardest records to beat in sports.

Bo Jackson > every athlete you listed. By a lot.

[plowking]

What is the average weight of today's NBA athlete compared to previously? Would be interesting to see. I'm going to guess it is at least 10lbs heavier now.

EDIT: As I post this, above appears my answer...

Players heavier, stronger, and jumping higher than ever. Seems like every great prospect these days has a 40 inch vertical.

[dhsilv]

See this is the problem I have with newer fans.

Barkley not as athletic as Lebron?

That fat ass was maybe the best rebounder of all time (at least 2nd) at 6'6''. He had insane jumping ability and strength. In his Philly days he went coast to coast for thunderous slams.

Again, Lebron might jump higher and from further distance off one leg, but he can barely even dunk off two legs. Barkley could explode and dunk with no space from very little distance, Lebron simply can't do that. Barkley was strong as an ox, pushing huge 7 foot centers out of the way for rebounds.

How is that not incredible athleticism?

Barkley was a FREAK athlete. Lebron is more of one.

David Robinson however....that guy was a mutant!

[ShawkFactory]

See this is the problem I have with newer fans.

Barkley not as athletic as Lebron?

That fat ass was maybe the best rebounder of all time (at least 2nd) at 6'6''. He had insane jumping ability and strength. In his Philly days he went coast to coast for thunderous slams.

Again, Lebron might jump higher and from further distance off one leg, but he can barely even dunk off two legs. Barkley could explode and dunk with no space from very little distance, Lebron simply can't do that. Barkley was strong as an ox, pushing huge 7 foot centers out of the way for rebounds.

How is that not incredible athleticism?

You think Barkley is as good of an overall athlete as Lebron?

It has nothing to do with the era. Lebron is a freak unlike anything we've seen in the league really.

[dhsilv]

What is the average weight of today's NBA athlete compared to previously? Would be interesting to see. I'm going to guess it is at least 10lbs heavier now.

posted above, I can add a table if you really want, but not 10 pounds in the nba (well ok depends on when you start).

If you want, height is basically flat. 87 through 2015 the average height was 6'7. Before that however...

[90sgoat]

What is the average weight of today's NBA athlete compared to previously? Would be interesting to see. I'm going to guess it is at least 10lbs heavier now.

EDIT: As I post this, above appears my answer...

Players heavier, stronger, and jumping higher than ever. Seems like every great prospect these days has a 40 inch vertical.

Weight is definitely higher.

Is that better though?

Is a heavier basketball player a better basketball player?

[dhsilv]

Weight is definitely higher.

Is that better though?

Is a heavier basketball player a better basketball player?

All else equal, yes. If it is making them slower or jump lower, then no. If they were somehow oddly weaker again, bad.

Are players slower? They run a lot more. They jump as high or higher than ever. We have more freaks imo (more teams too).

[90sgoat]

All else equal, yes. If it is making them slower or jump lower, then no. If they were somehow oddly weaker again, bad.

Are players slower? They run a lot more. They jump as high or higher than ever. We have more freaks imo (more teams too).

They run more compared to the 00s but not the 80s. Not even close. They walk the ball up most of the time, even in the 90s you still ran the ball up a lot of the time. That's also why 80s players are skinnier and why you should be Lebron or Dwight size in a sport which consists of so much running.

Lebron gets tired now because he is heavier, he was a lot more active in his early career.

[90sgoat]

You think Barkley is as good of an overall athlete as Lebron?

It has nothing to do with the era. Lebron is a freak unlike anything we've seen in the league really.

Yes, but in basketball terms I don't think Lebron is a better ahtlete than Sir Charles, it depends on what you do with your athleticism. Let me know when Lebron grabs 33 rebounds in a game or when he just gets 20+ and he is a couple of inches taller.

Lebron is faster than Barkley in the open court, his two feet juming ability is worse, his first step not faster, he is a much worse second jumper