Kobe vs. Larry Bird

[JPR]

number 1, larry bird was no b*tch. he didn't cry on the court or in it! : number 2, kobe is too soft to ever equal larry's legendary status.

[Pavel Podkolzin1]

I agree with DeJordan. Bird is ahead but not by much.

[JPR]

Kobe is a member of the soft nba. the nba of tracy mcgrady and grant hill. the nba of talent and minimal balls. he has no right ever being mentioned in the same breath as legends such as larry bird and magic johnson...back when they played real ball.

[Kblaze8855]

kobe is a significantly better scorer than bird and a significantly better defender. bird was a significantly better rebounder, passer, leader, and decision-maker. i actually think it's closer than most people will admit, and larry bird is one of my all time faves so i'm not just playing favorites and trying to boost up bryant.

I really dont think Kobe is a better scorer than Bird. I think its just a matter of situation. Kobe wouldnt be scoring 35 a game or dropping 81 on a team with Kevin Mchale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, and Danny Ainge on it. What exactly does Kobe do on a higher level than Bird when it coems to putting the ball in the e basket? Hes a better slasher but not by nearly the margin of difference in their athletic ability. Bird was a better post scorer. A better midrange shooter. A better long range shooter. Bird was in no way behind Kobe in variety of shots he could make.

When you really think about is...can anyone ever match Bird as a post scorer, midrange shooter, AND long range shooter? Jordan can match 1 and 2 maybe as a stretch. Not 3. Kobe can match 2 and 3 when hes very hot. 1? No. tmac? Not a post scorer. Dirk can do 2. Not all 3. Nique? Gervin? King? If anyone can do it like Bird from all 3 spots I dont know about them. Some surpass him in the ones they are best at but I cant think of anyone his equal at all of them. Amazingly well rounded scorer.

Bird just had less cause to score big. But when he put his mind to it he did it like nothing. 2 games really make that clear to me.

Kevin Mchale set the Celtics scoring record with 56 points one game. That very week Larry goes out and does this:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=2pkqmvyIoHA

Drops 60 on the Hawks. Really see what he was doing there. Those are some of the most insane shots ever made. Out there making 20 foot high floaters and spinning 4 point play creating off balance threes. The Hawks players were falling off the bench in disbelief. Think its just by chance that happened right after Mchale dropped 56? I dont. I think Bird is on a short list of guys who could just decide he was getting 50-60.

Another example is one Bill Walton mentioned in a 30 minute interview you can watch on NBA.coms video section. He(Walton) and Mchale had not played very hard a few nights. They had a 3 game losing streak(in a 67 win season..thats a longass losing streak). They lost ot the Mavs and Bird kept trying to find them and they kept coming up short. Bird was disgusted with the effort and told them that if they wouldnt play hard hed win the games by himself. They went out and had another poor effort. He went out the next game and dropped 42 in 24 minutes vs the Spurs in the first half. They won in the blowout and he finished with only 45 or 48. Something below 50. He started passing in the second half since hed made his point. They all went back to playing hard and eventually went 50-1 at home and won the title.

We are talking about a scorer so well rounded he could(and did) decide to play whole games left handed just for fun and still kill teams. If a guy can drop 60 on command just to one up a guy and give a team 40 in a half just to prove a point to his teammates I think its safe to say he held back for the teams sake most of the time. In 4 seasons now Kobe has taken more shots than Bird did in any season.

Did Birds success go up as a result of teammates? Sure. But his numbers suffered. If he played on a team with a pass first non aggressive #2 with a coach who would just ask him to murder the NBA when the team needed to go on a run you dont think he could have scored more?

Even having seen 6 or 7 hundred of Jordans games(a possibly low estimate) ive always thought Bird was the most complete offensive player ive ever seen and even though in his prime he was a 29/11/7 player his numbers could have been better.

Put Larry Bird in place of MJ on the 87 Bulls and have them play the same I doubt he comes up one bit short of the 37 a game Jordan did. And if hes on the Lakers and Phil Jackson told him to go off like he tells Kobe now and then...no doubt he kills it.

So not only do I not think Kobe is a significantly better scorer than Bird...I dont think anyone ive seen is a significantly better scorer. I feel it comes down to ability to score vs how much you score. Birds ability to score was greater than his scoring totals. A good bit better I believe.

As a scorer...Kobe is to today what George Gervin and King were in Birds. I dont think less scoring when less scoring is required should be held against him in comparison to others. If Bird were a spur he probably wins 4 scoring titles like Gervin. As a Knick he probbaly drops 32 a game like King. Cant give it the same weight because its hypothetical I know...but his skills were not.

Bird had skills to spare and I dont think we have seen anyone with more skills when it comes to scoring. If we have...sure wasnt significantly more. Kobe is on a real short list of guys who can be fairly put on Birds general level strictly as a scorer. But I dont think he or anyone else in my lifetime just blows him away.

[trig]

Ive never watched a larry Bird game and felt like, damn bird is shooting too much. Cant say the same thing w/ Kobe

[Loki]

(1) If Larry Bird (prime) played in today's league, would he be considered a better player than kobe? (by "better" i mean more impact/dominant)

Without question imo. I can't even believe this is a question, actually. Prime Bird would be a 27/10/7/2/1/49% player in this league, and would be the clutchest player as well. Bird would dominate.

(2) If Kobe were to retire today or after this season, could he crack the top 20 greatest? (I know there was a thread on this and he ranked 24, but after answering the first question, your ranking of kobe may/maynot change

Yes, he could crack the top 20 after this season, and some may already put him there on the high end, which I wouldn't argue too strenuously against.

I really dont think Kobe is a better scorer than Bird. I think its just a matter of situation. Kobe wouldnt be scoring 35 a game or dropping 81 on a team with Kevin Mchale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, and Danny Ainge on it. What exactly does Kobe do on a higher level than Bird when it coems to putting the ball in the e basket? Hes a better slasher but not by nearly the margin of difference in their athletic ability. Bird was a better post scorer. A better midrange shooter. A better long range shooter. Bird was in no way behind Kobe in variety of shots he could make.

When you really think about is...can anyone ever match Bird as a post scorer, midrange shooter, AND long range shooter? Jordan can match 1 and 2 maybe as a stretch. Not 3. Kobe can match 2 and 3 when hes very hot. 1? No. tmac? Not a post scorer. Dirk can do 2. Not all 3. Nique? Gervin? King? If anyone can do it like Bird from all 3 spots I dont know about them. Some surpass him in the ones they are best at but I cant think of anyone his equal at all of them. Amazingly well rounded scorer.

Bird just had less cause to score big. But when he put his mind to it he did it like nothing. 2 games really make that clear to me.

Kevin Mchale set the Celtics scoring record with 56 points one game. That very week Larry goes out and does this:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=2pkqmvyIoHA

Drops 60 on the Hawks. Really see what he was doing there. Those are some of the most insane shots ever made. Out there making 20 foot high floaters and spinning 4 point play creating off balance threes. The Hawks players were falling off the bench in disbelief. Think its just by chance that happened right after Mchale dropped 56? I dont. I think Bird is on a short list of guys who could just decide he was getting 50-60.

Another example is one Bill Walton mentioned in a 30 minute interview you can watch on NBA.coms video section. He(Walton) and Mchale had not played very hard a few nights. They had a 3 game losing streak(in a 67 win season..thats a longass losing streak). They lost ot the Mavs and Bird kept trying to find them and they kept coming up short. Bird was disgusted with the effort and told them that if they wouldnt play hard hed win the games by himself. They went out and had another poor effort. He went out the next game and dropped 42 in 24 minutes vs the Spurs in the first half. They won in the blowout and he finished with only 45 or 48. Something below 50. He started passing in the second half since hed made his point. They all went back to playing hard and eventually went 50-1 at home and won the title.

We are talking about a scorer so well rounded he could(and did) decide to play whole games left handed just for fun and still kill teams. If a guy can drop 60 on command just to one up a guy and give a team 40 in a half just to prove a point to his teammates I think its safe to say he held back for the teams sake most of the time. In 4 seasons now Kobe has taken more shots than Bird did in any season.

Did Birds success go up as a result of teammates? Sure. But his numbers suffered. If he played on a team with a pass first non aggressive #2 with a coach who would just ask him to murder the NBA when the team needed to go on a run you dont think he could have scored more?

Even having seen 6 or 7 hundred of Jordans games(a possibly low estimate) ive always thought Bird was the most complete offensive player ive ever seen and even though in his prime he was a 29/11/7 player his numbers could have been better.

Put Larry Bird in place of MJ on the 87 Bulls and have them play the same I doubt he comes up one bit short of the 37 a game Jordan did. And if hes on the Lakers and Phil Jackson told him to go off like he tells Kobe now and then...no doubt he kills it.

So not only do I not think Kobe is a significantly better scorer than Bird...I dont think anyone ive seen is a significantly better scorer. I feel it comes down to ability to score vs how much you score. Birds ability to score was greater than his scoring totals. A good bit better I believe.

As a scorer...Kobe is to today what George Gervin and King were in Birds. I dont think less scoring when less scoring is required should be held against him in comparison to others. If Bird were a spur he probably wins 4 scoring titles like Gervin. As a Knick he probbaly drops 32 a game like King. Cant give it the same weight because its hypothetical I know...but his skills were not.

Bird had skills to spare and I dont think we have seen anyone with more skills when it comes to scoring. If we have...sure wasnt significantly more. Kobe is on a real short list of guys who can be fairly put on Birds general level strictly as a scorer. But I dont think he or anyone else in my lifetime just blows him away.

Well said. I wouldn't argue if anyone suggested that Kobe is a better scorer, but to say that he's a significantly better scorer is wrong imo for the reasons stated above. Bird dropped 30/53% one year and 29/53% another. Incidentally, those are the only years he took as many as 22 shot attempts per game.

One factor that is being somewhat overlooked is that being surrounded by other (to varying degrees) dangerous scorers (McHale, Parish, Ainge, DJ) means the defense can't key in on you as much. Still, I don't think that's enough to outweigh all of what kblaze stated above. So again, Kobe may be the better scorer, but there's not some huge margin there. It may be something like a 5-10% difference, not 30%.

[Hardtop Hero]

dejordan, your post is flawed i'm sorry. Kobe is not "close" to Bird. Don't let high scoring games fool you. Kobe's never shot over 50%, does not have the bball IQ of Bird, is not the same kind of leader and has not proven he can step us as big in the post season as Larry.

kblaze said everything necessary to shut down your erroneous post so I won't continue. Brush up on your basketball.

[Los Angeles]

In 4 seasons now Kobe has taken more shots than Bird did in any season.

Not really sure how it's relevent at all, Kobe takes shots because he has too...you said so yourself, Bird had teammates that needed the ball.

If Kobe was a better decision maker with the basketball, he could possibly be the greatest scorer this league has ever seen. But he isn't, I question his decision making way too much for me to consider him better then Bird as a scorer...is he on the same level? Perhaps, more then likely he is...could he be better then Bird or Michael if he had better intangibles, I really have no doubt about it. I have seen Michael, Magic, Bird play and I will tell you straight up...no one has impressed me more then Kobe when he's dominating a game, is it as often as Bird or Jordan? No, those guys were a lot smarter and were a lot more fundamentally sound, and a lot more consistant with their legendary play...and in Jordan's favor, also more physically fit...but in terms of talent, I have a hard time putting anyone above Kobe. Guy has all the tools, but he lacks basketball IQ...plain and simple.

I watch Kobe do what he did to Dallas, Portland last season or Toronto...I remember his game against Washington (Jordan's last game), I remember him getting 3 triple doubles in a span of 6-7 games (when he said he'll concentrate on team play more)...this guy can do it all, he just doesn't know his limits, when he needs to take over a game. He watches his teammates mis 3-4 shots, and before you know it...he takes the next 6-7 shots for his team, he needs to trust his teammates more...he'll become a better player the day he sets his mind to it.

[Batchoy]

I suggest all NBA fans who didn't get a chance to see Bird play read his book, "Drive: The Story of My Life". It has some fascinating insight about Larry and it shows how driven he was to be great in basketball. He really was a "hick from French Lick", but more importantly he loved the game of basketball and knew how to play it.

I hated Larry Bird more than anything when he was wearing Boston green because of my love for The Showtime Lakers, back in the day, but I grew to respect him and how he played the game. I don't even think he had a 20 inch vertical leap but he would average double digits in rebounding. He was slower than any player on the court, but he would get 2+ steals a game. He wasn't quick, but he could get off a shot over any defender. Larry Bird showed everyone that you didn't have to be a great athlete to be a basketball player. His basketball IQ was on par with Magic Johnson which is why they formed a rivalry and which is also why they became good friends.

Kobe is the new breed of basketball player who rely more on athleticism to play the game. But I have to give Kobe props for his old school mentality of preparing for games and how much "driven" he is to be great. The major difference is that Kobe would always think his shot is the best available, even if he is triple teamed. Kobe has not yet learned to fully trust his teammates (which infuriates me because he's been in the league 12 years). And, Kobe lovers, don't give me any of this crap about how "bad" his teammates are. Larry Bird lead a group of nobody's to a NCAA Finals game. You play the hand that is dealt to you. You can't have a do-over or re-deal the cards again so you can have a better hand (sorry about the poker reference, just played last weekend). Kobe should just shut up and try to find how to make his teammates play the best of their abilities.

Larry Bird would be a great player, no matter what era. That's what legends can do.

[dejordan]

damn! i just got schooled in this thread!

kblaze you make great, great points. i don't have any real counter, and i guess i shouldn't have said "significantly better scorer" (i actually had misgivings with that while i was writing it.

to explain what i was thinking when i wrote that - bird was not the volume scorer that bryant is. he did not get shots up as quickly or easily even when kc jones was just riding him (like when he scored 60), and though his handle was good, he could be bothered when trying to use the dribble to get where he wanted to be for a shot if an excellent, lanky defender really zeroed in on him (i'm thinking cooper here). did he have other answers to these things? yes, like going into the post or running a give and go. but one of the reasons that kobe can throw up back to back to back to back 50 point games is that when he's on fire, he basically can't even be bothered. he can use his quick dribble, elevate, and fade to get a relatively clean look over any defender. given the no-touch rule, it means when his outside game is on, he's capable of having incredible scoring outbursts.

edit: i also think kobe's all-around game is underrated by some people. he was the only penetrator / creator on the shaq dynasties. once shaw left he was the best lob passer for oneal. he was the only slashing scorer who got significant minutes. he was the best perimeter defender. after harper left he was the only guard capable of getting on the boards. he was their clutch go to guy - though horry and fisher hit their share of enormous shots in last second situations as well. he really did have a ton of responsibility on that team. though he'll never win a versatility contest with larry bird (or jordan or lebron who he also gets compared to a lot) obviously, i just thought i'd bring that up because i don't think it gets mentioned.

going by the description in kblaze's post (which i agree with), bird is basically the most complete scorer ever but happened to be on a team that required him to be more of an all-around weapon than a pure point producer. i can say he's inarguably the best passing front court player i've seen. nobody's even close. as a small forward the only rebounders i can think of who were clearly superior were rodman, barkley, garnett, and baylor - most of whom wound up being power forwards. he's not a lockdown one on one defender by any means, but he was an excellent team defender who made a couple all-d teams. his clutch production is legendary as is his leadership.

so let me ask you guys who are propping larry here (which i have no problem with) - is he your goat? if not, why? i know why i would pick mj, but i'd like to know what other people think.

[Knoe Itawl]

Not really sure how it's relevent at all, Kobe takes shots because he has too...you said so yourself, Bird had teammates that needed the ball.

If Kobe was a better decision maker with the basketball, he could possibly be the greatest scorer this league has ever seen. But he isn't, I question his decision making way too much for me to consider him better then Bird as a scorer...is he on the same level? Perhaps, more then likely he is...could he be better then Bird or Michael if he had better intangibles, I really have no doubt about it. I have seen Michael, Magic, Bird play and I will tell you straight up...no one has impressed me more then Kobe when he's dominating a game, is it as often as Bird or Jordan? No, those guys were a lot smarter and were a lot more fundamentally sound, and a lot more consistant with their legendary play...and in Jordan's favor, also more physically fit...but in terms of talent, I have a hard time putting anyone above Kobe. Guy has all the tools, but he lacks basketball IQ...plain and simple.

I watch Kobe do what he did to Dallas, Portland last season or Toronto...I remember his game against Washington (Jordan's last game), I remember him getting 3 triple doubles in a span of 6-7 games (when he said he'll concentrate on team play more)...this guy can do it all, he just doesn't know his limits, when he needs to take over a game. He watches his teammates mis 3-4 shots, and before you know it...he takes the next 6-7 shots for his team, he needs to trust his teammates more...he'll become a better player the day he sets his mind to it.

No. The problem is, that as good as he is (and he's very good) he's not as good as he THINKS he is, or as good as many of his fans THINK he is. He really thinks he can make a shot from anywhere at anytime and he can't. No one really can. What Kobe is is probably the greatest streak shooter in the history of the game. When he gets hot, it's hotter than anyone has ever gotten. And this is what fools people. It makes them think he's a better scorer (and player) than he really is. He is the ultimate volume shooter (hence the reason he's never shot over 50% even with Shaq on the team). When they're going, boy does he look great! When they're not going, he doesn't know when to pack it in and try to do other things. That's why (along the lines of what blaze was saying in another thread) as great as he is, he doesn't seem to have a great impact on WINNING (and this goes back to when Shaq was out during the three-peat years). His personality also doesn't help in that regard. It's also why, despite his high scoring exploits, I can't see how he's proven more than guys like Iverson, Tmac, Pierce as a FRANCHISE player. Magic impacted WINNING. Bird impacted WINNING. Jordan impacted WINNING. It's not all just about high scoring games and nice moves. Yes, I know his team sucks his team sucks. It's not about the team he has around him, it's his playing style. Sure he would win MORE with a better team, but I dont' know that it would translate to deep playoff success.

[crisoner]

No. The problem is, that as good as he is (and he's very good) he's not as good as he THINKS he is, or as good as many of his fans THINK he is. He really thinks he can make a shot from anywhere at anytime and he can't. No one really can. What Kobe is is probably the greatest streak shooter in the history of the game. When he gets hot, it's hotter than anyone has ever gotten. And this is what fools people. It makes them think he's a better scorer (and player) than he really is. He is the ultimate volume shooter (hence the reason he's never shot over 50% even with Shaq on the team). When they're going, boy does he look great! When they're not going, he doesn't know when to pack it in and try to do other things. That's why (along the lines of what blaze was saying in another thread) as great as he is, he doesn't seem to have a great impact on WINNING (and this goes back to when Shaq was out during the three-peat years). His personality also doesn't help in that regard. It's also why, despite his high scoring exploits, I can't see how he's proven more than guys like Iverson, Tmac, Pierce as a FRANCHISE player. Magic impacted WINNING. Bird impacted WINNING. Jordan impacted WINNING. It's not all just about high scoring games and nice moves. Yes, I know his team sucks his team sucks. It's not about the team he has around him, it's his playing style. Sure he would win MORE with a better team, but I dont' know that it would translate to deep playoff success.

The greatest STREAK shooter ever? Intersting take as always Knoe.

So tell me if I'm wrong...basically what your trying to say is Kobe's EGO affects his game and God given talents? And this affects his imapact for his teams to win?

And about winning MORE with a better team...he did have that with Shaq, Fox, Horry and Fisher and I think they went as deep as you can three times in a row.

[picc84]

You've gotta be one hell of a streak shooter to average 35 a game. Enough of one that it isnt 'streaks' anymore.

[picc84]

2 questions that I would like to get your opinion on (especially from kblaze because he seems like an intelligent poster in this forum):

(1) If Larry Bird (prime) played in today's league, would he be considered a better player than kobe? (by "better" i mean more impact/dominant)

(2) If Kobe were to retire today or after this season, could he crack the top 20 greatest? (I know there was a thread on this and he ranked 24, but after answering the first question, your ranking of kobe may/maynot change)

1. Yes.
2. "Could" he? Yes.

[Da KO King]

Kobe would be considered better.

For all of Bird's skill he was never a jaw-dropping athlete and never really had games that amazed non-hardcore hoop fans. Kobe has those qualities in spades. In the end the ability to awe those that normally do not care about basketball would get Kobe the nod over Larry.

Stupid or not quite often that's how people determine who's better. The ability to amaze.