Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

[JtotheIzzo]

one question for all you stat afficianatoes here:

Do you factor in the style of play that was prevelant during GP and KJ's era in the Western Conference?

it was high scoring and minimal defense, with lots of open court play benifiting the stats of the pg.

Do you factor in the run and gun style of play employed by both the Suns and Sonics of that era?

Comparing stats between KJ and Isiah is a waste of time because of the teams style of play.

Here is the only stat you need and it is rings:

Zeke-2
KJ - 0

Isiah could have easily been much more 'efficient' and had much prettier stats had he been in KJ's spot in Phoenix, because of the style of play.

Quit whoring these asinine stats when you dont explain the realities of how they came to fruition, because without context they mean nothing.

[GMATCallahan]

Phoenix won more because they had a more talented team, so it's hard to measure that when doing a head to head matchup.

1992-1993 teams

Phoenix

Charles Barkley
Tom Chambers
Danny Ainge
Kevin Johnson
Dan Majerle
Cedric Ceballos
Mark West
Oliver Miller
Richard Dumas
(the rest don't matter)

Utah

Karl Malone
Jeff Malone
John Stockton
Tyrone Corbin
Jay Humphries
David Benoit
Mike Brown
Mark Eaton
(rest don't matter)

And I still think you need to show the stats up until 96-97... because they were still in their primes, and it's going to even the numbers more, like coin flip does if you flip it enough times.

Regarding 1993, you're talking about just one season. Overall, the Suns and Jazz averaged close to the same amount of wins during that era, but the difference was that K.J. dominated Stockton head-to-head, not just in wins, but in the individual matchup (thus leading to the wins). See my previous post where I provide detailed aggregate statistics and box scores.

In the mid-nineties, that trend started to lessen, in part because the Suns' perimeter shooting around K.J. began to decline and thus allowed Utah to help Stockton more readily by running multiple defenders at Johnson to cut him off, without paying as much of a price. Besides, by the '95-'96 season, the Jazz possessed a vastly better team than the Suns (examine the records), not because K.J. had fallen off vis-a-vis Stockton, but because of Utah's superior stability and shrewd development of its supporting cast.

[GMATCallahan]

one question for all you stat afficianatoes here:

Do you factor in the style of play that was prevelant during GP and KJ's era in the Western Conference?

it was high scoring and minimal defense, with lots of open court play benifiting the stats of the pg.

Do you factor in the run and gun style of play employed by both the Suns and Sonics of that era?

Comparing stats between KJ and Isiah is a waste of time because of the teams style of play.

Here is the only stat you need and it is rings:

Zeke-2
KJ - 0

Isiah could have easily been much more 'efficient' and had much prettier stats had he been in KJ's spot in Phoenix, because of the style of play.

Quit whoring these asinine stats when you dont explain the realities of how they came to fruition, because without context they mean nothing.

LOL, you're the one who doesn't understand, because until the late eighties, Isiah Thomas ran the run-and-gun in Detroit (the Pistons averaged 117.1 points in 1984, 116.0 in 1985, 114.1 in 1986, and 111.2 in 1987, and they took part in the highest-scoring game in NBA history on December 13, 1983, a 186-184 victory over Denver in which Thomas scored 47 points). While running the run-and-gun, he posted the same kinds of scoring and playmaking averages as K.J. in the run-and-gun, but with less efficiency.

Isiah Thomas, 1984-1987 (his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):

21.0 points, 11.5 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.2 steals, .467 field goal percentage, .774 free throw percentage, 3.9 turnovers, 2.97:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

Kevin Johnson, 1989-1992 (his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):

21.2 points, 11.1 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 1.6 steals, .500 field goal percentage, .843 free throw percentage, 3.6 turnovers, 3.07:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

In their greatest four-season stretches, Thomas' assists-to-turnovers ratio proved a little worse than K.J.'s, he averaged more turnovers per game and, more importantly, he was still much more inefficient from the field and the free throw line. What Detroit head coach Chuck Daly discovered was that because of Thomas' relative inefficiencies (relative to other superstars of his era), it did not pay to have him shooting as often and dominating the offense as much in a fast-paced game. The Pistons could only win a championship if Daly turned the roster into a defense-oriented squad that could stymie the opposition and thus compensate for his leader's inefficiencies. Henceforth, out went the offensive-minded Kelly Tripucka, in came defense-first players such as Dennis Rodman and John Salley, and by 1988, the Pistons were averaging fewer than 110 points per game and reaching the NBA Finals.

You're the one who cannot comprehend context if you simplistically break out the "two rings to none" argument. As I explained earlier in one of my posts a few minutes ago, basketball is a team sport, not an individual one. Isiah Thomas, like Bob Cousy, won championships not just because he was a great player and a clutch player (which he was), but because he enjoyed the defensive support that could compensate for his inefficiencies and that is typically necessary to win championships. Thomas won two rings to K.J.'s none largely because his team context was more conducive to championship basketball, not because he was necessarily the greater individual player. As I've noted, in 1998, The Sporting News named both Thomas and K.J. as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s. Thomas and K.J. played in three career Game Sevens each, and here were their respective statistics in those winner-take-all Game Sevens.

Isiah Thomas: 18.7 points, 9.0 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.0 steals, 0.3 blocks, .368 field goal percentage (19.0 FGA), .200 three-point field goal percentage (1.7 FGA), .765 free throw percentage (5.7 FTA), 2.0 turnovers, 4.50:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

Kevin Johnson: 31.0 points, 10.0 assists, 2.3 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 1.0 blocks, .424 field goal percentage (19.7 FGA), .250 three-point field goal percentage (1.3 FGA), .933 free throw percentage (15.0 FTA), 2.7 turnovers, 3.75:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

And all three of K.J.'s Game Sevens came with Barkley on his team, whereas Thomas never played with someone who dominated the ball quite to Barkley's degree. And, sure, Thomas had the bum ankle in Game Seven of the 1988 NBA Finals versus the Lakers, but then people fault K.J. for getting hurt. (By the way, Thomas' and K.J.'s teams each went 1-2 in those Game Sevens, again proving that basketball is a team sport. In the two Game Sevens that K.J.'s Suns lost, Johnson averaged 35.5 points, 10.5 assists, and a .967 free throw percentage, shooting 28-29 from the line. However, no matter how great the individual player's performance, it is still a team sport.)

So K.J. was every bit the clutch player that Thomas was, and don't be a "rings whore" who ignores team context. Also, after Barkley arrived in Phoenix, K.J. could not run-and-gun as much because the Suns moved to a post-up offense, and as the 1990s progressed, the entire NBA became more slowly paced, especially compared to Thomas' statistical heyday in the trigger-happy mid-1980s. Don't pretend that you comprehend context if you don't.

[GMATCallahan]

I don't know how to explain what I saw... Perhaps the numbers would show that KJ was great at dishing assists the first 3 quarters and then had the ball 80% of the time in the fourth.. But I recall him holding the ball a lot, over-dribbling or something... I don't know how to describe it or make an argument for it. There's a formula out there somewhere that would explain it though.

I'm not calling him selfish exactly... But, when comparing him to Stockton (You neglected to show his ratio btw), he did look like a ballhog. I mean... that was more his game, and suited his style, but I also felt that Stockton would have got all of Johnson's teammates more involved and made them better. KJ didn't set screen's anywhere near as good as Stockton did, for example.

Of course Stockton was more pass-first than K.J., so what? The fact that K.J. could take over games in the fourth quarter when Stockton could or would not was an asset, because sometimes that's what you need to do as a star. He was not a ball-hog (look at his efficiency, and his shot attempts were about the same as Magic Johnson's), but he did know how to step up and take over a game at will when the Suns needed it, and that quality gave K.J. a deeply valuable dimension that Stockton generally lacked. As I noted earlier, there's a reason why K.J. first reached the Western Conference Finals in his second NBA season and his first as a full-time starter, and the NBA Finals in his sixth NBA season and his fifth as a full-time starter, whereas Stockton first reached the Western Conference Finals in his eighth NBA season and his fifth as a full-time starter, and the NBA Finals in his thirteenth NBA season and his tenth as a full-time starter. It's a good thing that Stockton's longevity proved so great, because otherwise he might never have achieved the same playoff success as K.J.

Also, the fact that Stockton was more pass-first than K.J. didn't mean that K.J. didn't also pass quite a bit and make his teammates better. Let me quote an earlier part of the thread (one of my earlier posts) in my next post.

[GMATCallahan]

K.J. had a lot to do with some of those All-Star appearances by his teammates. Hornacek made his only All-Star Game playing next to K.J. in 1992, even though he later spent six-and-a-half seasons alongside John Stockton in Utah's backcourt. Dan Majerle never averaged as many as 11.0 points in his seven seasons after leaving K.J., immediately dropping from 15.6 with Phoenix in 1995 to 10.6 in Cleveland in 1996. Part of that decline can be explained by Majerle playing fewer minutes on a new team, but he was still just 30 years old and could have played more had his new coaching staff deemed him effective enough. Without K.J., though, that wasn't the case, even though Majerle had joined one of the better point guards of the day in Terrell Brandon (and later Tim Hardaway in Miami). Still, he couldn't come close to duplicating his success alongside K.J. in Phoenix.

As for Tom Chambers, he'd made one All-Star Game in seven seasons prior to joining K.J., but he then made the All-Star team three years in a row as soon as he started running with Johnson. Check out these K.J.-Chambers hook-ups:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/for...c&daysprune=-1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_jBW...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN4-b...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDyBS...elated&search=

And Eddie Johnson received his only NBA honor (1989 Sixth Man of the Year) playing next to K.J.

Let me also quote a recent post of mine on another board to reveal more about the K.J.-Chambers dynamic and how K.J. had made the Sixers' "Barkley haul" (Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) seem quite attractive at the time.

...

In fact, Tom Chambers once called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am," at Chambers' own Ring of Honor ceremony in 1999.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/column_...av=ArticleList

Playing with K.J. allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-season scoring average record two years in a row with 25.7 in 1989 and 27.2 in 1990, the latter mark remaining a franchise record. Playing with K.J. also allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-game scoring record with 60 points, just a month after scoring 56.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...O19900324.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...W19900218.html

Conversely, Shawn Kemp never averaged 20.0 points per game with Payton, a mark that he surely would have reached with K.J. Or look at the three players whom Phoenix dealt to Philadelphia in the Charles Barkley blockbuster of June 1992. On the surface, it seemed as if the Sixers were receiving quite a haul of talent, three starters off a 53-win team (Jeff Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) who had shot the following respective field goal percentages during the '92 season: .512, .523, .522. Three starters off a 53-win team who each shot well over 50% from the field should have helped the Sixers. However, as Philadelphia soon found out, those players were not nearly as effective once removed from K.J., even though Hornacek was a fine guard either way. Indeed, in Philadelphia in '93, Hornacek, Perry, and Lang shot just .470, .468, and .425 from the field, respectively. Perhaps the Sixers should have listened to Clyde Drexler after Perry scored 27 points in Game Three of the 1992 Western Conference Semifinals, with K.J. posting 16 points and 16 assists after going for 35 points (including 18 in a row, 22 in the third quarter, and 33 in the second half, shooting 16-16 from the free throw line) in Game Two and before recording 35 points and 14 assists in Game Four. Here was Drexler's quotation in the Los Angeles Times.

Johnson and Hornacek Put Run, Fun in Suns; [Home Edition] Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 10, 1992. pg. 5

Kevin Johnson, who runs the Phoenix offense, had 16 points and 16 assists.

"We ran up and down the court, and I found (Tim) Perry open, and pretty soon it just opened up for everybody," Johnson said

... "I don't think we stopped Kevin (Johnson) because he was able to get the ball to Perry and those other guys. I believe he might as well have scored Perry's 27 points," Drexler said.

K.J. actually made Perry seem like an attractive commodity to Philadelphia.

I'll also quote Hornacek's letter to K.J. in 2001:

I also want to thank you for helping to make my career what it was. I wasn't happy at first ... Cotton made you the point guard without even having to beat me out, but obviously he knew what he was doing! I learned quickly, as did everyone else who has had the privilege of playing along side of you, that my game would benefit from having you at point guard. You are one of few players who can elevate the play of those around you.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/kjohnso...av=ArticleList

[JtotheIzzo]

LOL, you're the one who doesn't understand, because until the late eighties, Isiah Thomas ran the run-and-gun in Detroit (the Pistons averaged 117.1 points in 1984, 116.0 in 1985, 114.1 in 1986, and 111.2 in 1987, and they took part in the highest-scoring game in NBA history on December 13, 1983, a 186-184 victory over Denver in which Thomas scored 47 points). While running the run-and-gun, he posted the same kinds of scoring and playmaking averages as K.J. in the run-and-gun, but with less efficiency.

Isiah Thomas, 1984-1987 (his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):

21.0 points, 11.5 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.2 steals, .467 field goal percentage, .774 free throw percentage, 3.9 turnovers, 2.97:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

Kevin Johnson, 1989-1992 (his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):

21.2 points, 11.1 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 1.6 steals, .500 field goal percentage, .843 free throw percentage, 3.6 turnovers, 2.98:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

In their greatest four-season stretches, Thomas' assists-to-turnovers ratio was close to the same as K.J.'s, but he still averaged more turnovers per game and, more importantly, was still much more inefficient from the field and the free throw line. What Detroit coach Chuck Daly discovered was that because of Thomas' relative inefficiencies (relative to other superstars of his era), it did not pay to have him shooting as often and dominating the offense as much in a fast-paced game. The Pistons could only win a championship if Daly turned the roster into a defense-oriented squad that could stymie the opposition and thus compensate for his leader's inefficiencies. Henceforth, out went the offensive-minded Kelly Tripucka, in came defense-first players such as Dennis Rodman and John Salley, and by 1988, the Pistons were averaging fewer than 110 points per game and reaching the NBA Finals.

You're the one who cannot comprehend context if you simplistically break out the "two rings to none" argument. As I explained earlier in one of my posts a few minutes ago, basketball is a team sport, not an individual one. Isiah Thomas, like Bob Cousy, won championships not just because he was a great player and a clutch player (which he was), but because he enjoyed the defensive support that could compensate for his inefficiencies and that is typically necessary to win championships. Thomas won two rings to K.J.'s none largely because his team context was more conducive to championship basketball, not because he was necessarily the greater individual player. As I've noted, in 1998, The Sporting News named both Thomas and K.J. as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s. Thomas and K.J. played in three career Game Sevens each, and here were their respective statistics in those winner-take-all Game Sevens.

Isiah Thomas: 18.7 points, 9.0 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.0 steals, 0.3 blocks, .368 field goal percentage (19.0 FGA), .200 three-point field goal percentage (1.7 FGA), .765 free throw percentage (5.7 FTA), 2.0 turnovers, 4.50:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

Kevin Johnson: 31.0 points, 10.0 assists, 2.3 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 1.0 blocks, .424 field goal percentage (19.7 FGA), .250 three-point field goal percentage (1.3 FGA), .933 free throw percentage (15.0 FTA), 2.7 turnovers, 3.75:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

And all three of K.J.'s Game Sevens came with Barkley on his team, whereas Thomas never played with someone who dominated the ball quite to Barkley's degree. And, sure, Thomas had the bum ankle in Game Seven of the 1988 NBA Finals versus the Lakers, but then people fault K.J. for getting hurt. (By the way, Thomas' and K.J.'s teams each went 1-2 in those Game Sevens, again proving that it's a team sport. In the two Game Sevens that K.J.'s Suns lost, Johnson averaged 35.5 points, 10.5 assists, and a .967 free throw percentage, shooting 28-29 from the line. However, no matter how great the individual player's performance, it is still a team sport.)

So K.J. was every bit the clutch player that Thomas was, and don't be a "rings whore" who ignores team context. Also, after Barkley arrived in Phoenix, K.J. could not run-and-gun as much because the Suns moved to a post-up offense, and as the 1990s progressed, the entire NBA became more slowly paced, especially compared to Thomas' statistical heyday in the trigger-happy mid-1980s. Don't pretend that you comprehend context if you don't.

whew! Do you think you could just link an audio book next time? I hope you didn't write the essay portion of your GMAT in a similar manner.

YOU STILL WILL NOT acknowledge that the Western Conference was WAY more wide open back in those days and much less physical than the East. The lanes were much less clogged and this directly contributes to KJs higher field goal percentage.

You also act like having Barkley on the team hurt KJ. This is ridiculous. It opened up the floor for KJ and occupied the helpside defense. Zeke was also the primary threat on his team, KJ had his best years as second fiddle.


thinking KJ>Zeke is the retarded musing of a homer fan and you can use all the cross statistical analysis you want it just doesn't add up.

you're wrong.

[GMATCallahan]

Also see the following quotation from Tom Chambers (the one who called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am"), and note how talks about K.J. liking to distribute the ball:

Cesmat: Tom, think back to Kevin Johnson, when you first started playing alongside him. What were your thoughts of this kid?

Chambers: Well, it brought a smile to my face, first of all. He was enthusiastic, energetic. He had skills, he could jump, he liked to distribute the ball. He could shoot it. I mean, he was just a really, really complete athlete. And most of all, he liked to run. He was always running. And to clear up one more thing, I wouldn't have come to Phoenix without Kevin Johnson being here ... I wanted to come here and be on a young, running team with some enthusiasm and go from ground zero where we were starting from to getting ourselves back to an elite team. So it was just awesome playing with Kevin.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/kjohnso...le_010306.html

Indeed, in seven seasons before joining K.J. in Phoenix in 1988, the 29-year old Chambers had made one All-Star Team and zero All-NBA Teams. In his first three years with K.J., however, Chambers made three All-Star Teams and two All-NBA Second Teams. Playing with K.J. actually turned Chambers into a top-ten NBA player for a couple years. It's no wonder then, that in 2001, Chambers (who later played with Stockton in Utah for two seasons) claimed that he would rather take passes from K.J. than Stockton.

jake tempe from [63.230.193.1], at 2:37pm ET
if you had to pick one!!! who would you rather get the ball from?? kj or john stockton?


Tom Chambers
at 2:38pm ET
KJ for sure. He was always looking for me and I was his number one priority.

http://www.nba.com/suns/interactive/...pt_010306.html

But what was great about K.J. was that he could play both ways, and when his teammates weren't doing anything, he could take over himself. As Chambers also stated in that chat:

Kevin was very good -- there aren't many point guards who are capable of that kind of thing. Isiah Thomas could do it every night, but beyond that, they're tough to find. I would compare those two a lot. Kevin was the most explosive guard I've seen and he could just take over a game almost at will. There are very few players like that who have played the point guard position.

http://www.nba.com/suns/interactive/...pt_010306.html

Indeed, that 1992 Western Conference Semifinals series with Portland, the one that I referenced in the previous post, is a perfect example of how K.J. could and would adjust his game from the point guard position based on the context of the competition and the needs of his team (K.J. always did what the team needed to win, whether it was passing or scoring, depending on what the situation called for).

In Game Two of that series, the Suns were down big at halftime and K.J. had scored just 2 points. With his team desperate, K.J. didn't just lay back and play passively, watching his team lose while his teammates couldn't do anything. In the third quarter, he scored 22 points, including 18 in a row, and 33 in the second half, shooting 16-16 from the free throw line. Although the Suns lost, they made it a close game and actually took the lead at one point. (That's something that Stockton, for example, would or could not do in Game Three of 1998 NBA Finals: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...I19980607.html.)

In Game Three, K.J. found Tim Perry early and often and went for 16 points and 16 assists as the Suns won. In Game Four, K.J. both scored and passed prolificly, posting 35 points and 14 assists before fouling out in the second overtime as the Suns lost, 153-151.

To quote "musictoad," a Stockton fan from the ESPN NBA general message board:

KJ was explosive, plain and simple, but had all the nuances essential for being a good set up guard as well as a scoring guard.

http://boards.espn.go.com/boards/mb/...1153830&tsn=61

That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell, and helps explain why K.J.'s points and assists were so high, and why he wasn't much less efficient than Stockton. One of the criticisms of Stockton was that sometimes, he was so busy playing his "pure," textbook point guard role that he wouldn't always take the shots when they were there or when he was the team's best option. Obviously, he would at times, but especially early in his career, people felt that he wasn't aggressive enough and thus couldn't do as much as K.J. or Isiah Thomas (although Thomas, unlike K.J., was more inefficient).

[JtotheIzzo]

wow, you sourced a first person testimonial from an adoring teammate. It is really difficult to get a teammate to say nice things about another teammate to the media.

How did you ever find such a thing.

There it is right there, all the proof you need

KJ is waaaaaaaaaaaay better than Zeke.

Case closed. KJ is the GOAT

I guess I will move on now, those sappy words from TC have me dripping with affection for KJ, I will never try to say Isiah is better than KJ ever again.

ever!

thank you for showing me the error in my ways.

[GMATCallahan]

whew! Do you think you could just link an audio book next time? I hope you didn't write the essay portion of your GMAT in a similar manner.

YOU STILL WILL NOT acknowledge that the Western Conference was WAY more wide open back in those days and much less physical than the East. The lanes were much less clogged and this directly contributes to KJs higher field goal percentage.

You also act like having Barkley on the team hurt KJ. This is ridiculous. It opened up the floor for KJ and occupied the helpside defense. Zeke was also the primary threat on his team, KJ had his best years as second fiddle.


thinking KJ>Zeke is the retarded musing of a homer fan and you can use all the cross statistical analysis you want it just doesn't add up.

you're wrong.

I do not think that K.J. was better Thomas. I do think that they were on the same level and I use empirical evidence to support my case, and if that's a crime, sue me.

Having Barkley on the team did not hurt K.J. as an overall player or threat, but it did slow the Suns' offense down a little and took the ball out of K.J.'s hands to some degree, hence explaining the drop in his numbers. In the four years prior to Barkley's arrival (1989-1992), K.J. averaged 21.2 points, 11.1 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage. In his four years with Barkley, K.J. averaged 17.8 points, 8.7 assists, and a .491 field goal percentage, still terrific statistics but ones that aren't as spectacular. Instead of running down the court at fast to stop-and-pop the jumper, K.J. would slow it up more often and wait for Barkley because the Suns were running a post-up offense. The floor was actually more open in Phoenix before Barkely arrived, because there was no one to hold the ball in the post for an eternity and slowly dribble while everyone else stood around watching. Barkley made the team better overall, but he certainly rendered the Suns' offense less fluid and a bit more clogged. Before Barkley, the Suns had enough shooters to open up the floor for K.J.

The Western Conference was more open than the East in, say, the early 1990s. In the mid-1980s, when Thomas was at his statistical peak, that wasn't necessarily the case, at least not for Detroit. If everything was so clogged, then how do you explain that the mid-eighties Pistons averaged about as many points as K.J.'s Suns did in the late eighties and early nineties? In fact, the 1985 Pistons featured a faster "pace factor" (107.7) than the '89 Suns (107.2).

http://www.basketballreference.com/t...T&lg=n&yr=1984

http://www.basketballreference.com/t...O&lg=n&yr=1988

In other words, Thomas was playing a slightly faster game because the NBA was even more up-tempo in the mid-eighties, and the faster the game, the less clogged the court.

And K.J. was more efficient than a peak Thomas even in the mid-to-late nineties (say, 1996 and 1997), when the West was more slowly paced than the East had been in the mid-1980s. In '96, when K.J. shot .507 from the field, the Suns' "pace factor" was only 96.1.

http://www.basketballreference.com/t...O&lg=n&yr=1995

In '97, when he shot .496 from the field, Phoenix's "pace factor" was just 95.8.

http://www.basketballreference.com/t...O&lg=n&yr=1996

But when the 1985 Pistons were playing at a "pace factor" of 107.7, Thomas shot just .458 from the field.

In other words, the game of the mid-to-late nineties (even in the West) was much slower and more defensive-oriented than it had been during Thomas' mid-eighties statistical peak (even in the East), and yet K.J. was still far more efficient. That doesn't mean that he was necessarily the better player in the scope of basketball history, but it is an area where Johnson held an advantage.

[GMATCallahan]

wow, you sourced a first person testimonial from an adoring teammate. It is really difficult to get a teammate to say nice things about another teammate to the media.

How did you ever find such a thing.

There it is right there, all the proof you need

KJ is waaaaaaaaaaaay better than Zeke.

Case closed. KJ is the GOAT

I guess I will move on now, those sappy words from TC have me dripping with affection for KJ, I will never try to say Isiah is better than KJ ever again.

ever!

thank you for showing me the error in my ways.

Again, I do not think that K.J. was better than Thomas, just that they were on the same level. What's more, I have not just used quotations but also extensive statistics. First you damn me for empirical evidence, and now you damn me for personal testimonials? :)

Besides, I was actually using Chambers' quotations to reveal K.J.'s tendencies as a point guard and how they would vary based on what the team needed. I wasn't using them to make any comment about Isiah.

[JtotheIzzo]

Again, I do not think that K.J. was better than Thomas, just that they were on the same level. What's more, I have not just used quotations but also extensive statistics. First you damn me for empirical evidence, and now you damn me for personal testimonials? :)

Besides, I was actually using Chambers' quotations to reveal K.J.'s tendencies as a point guard and how they would vary based on what the team needed. I wasn't using them to make any comment about Isiah.

yes I am aware of that, and I was being cheeky to try and show how emotionally invested you are in this and how much of a waste it would be for me to put in an efforted reply.

I like KJ too, but I do not have the adoration to equate him with Zeke. Not in my world, I realize I cant change your world, and the propaganda front you put up is most impressive.

I'll leave it at that, but for future reference, please remember that numbers and quotes can be sourced and manipulated in all directions ad nauseum, so using them as the determining or damning factor does not make you an authority, it only makes you a know-it-all, and not in the good way.

[GMATCallahan]

Here's another note.

Phoenix Suns, 1989-1992 (four seasons before Barkley): 217 regular season wins, two Western Conference Finals, three Western Conference Semifinals, four playoff trips, qualified for nine rounds of the playoffs total

Phoenix Suns, 1993-1996 (four seasons with Barkley): 218 regular season wins, one NBA Finals, one Western Conference Finals, three Western Conference Semifinals, four playoff trips, qualified for nine rounds of the playoffs total

Now, Barkley constituted a positive overall and he helped K.J. reach the NBA Finals (just as K.J. helped Barkley reach the NBA Finals), but Johnson actually played in more Western Conference Finals without Barkley than with him, and overall, the Suns' regular season and postseason success rates proved virtually identical.

[GMATCallahan]

yes I am aware of that, and I was being cheeky to try and show how emotionally invested you are in this and how much of a waste it would be for me to put in an efforted reply.

I like KJ too, but I do not have the adoration to equate him with Zeke. Not in my world, I realize I cant change your world, and the propaganda front you put up is most impressive.

I'll leave it at that, but for future reference, please remember that numbers and quotes can be sourced and manipulated in all directions ad nauseum, so using them as the determining or damning factor does not make you an authority, it only makes you a know-it-all, and not in the good way.

Well, I'm not trying to put up propaganda or manipulate anything. I don't believe in doing anything dishonestly, and I have indicated (for instance) that Thomas was just as prolific a scorer and playmaker as K.J.

Ultimately, I'm just making an honest argument, one that shouldn't be hard to believe. K.J. and Thomas were similarly explosive, but K.J. was more efficient, and I'm not manipulating anything to show that. I don't believe that K.J. was necessarily better, but I do think that you could take either one and not be dramatically worse off. Thomas will be remembered more in history and understandably so because he led two championship-winning clubs, but as I've noted, he eventually played with the sort of team support conducive to winning a title (just like Bob Cousy). In the end, it is a team game.

[GMATCallahan]

Sure, 21 games per year. Which ever way you slice it, or try to avoid the issue by saying 'he never missed a playoff game', he was still injury prone. Very much so as a matter of fact. Broke the 80 game barriar once in his career, and only played 70+ games 33% of his career.

I'm not trying to 'interfere', I'm just making a point. A point that you don't really have to have seen Kevin Johnson play a lot to make. He was injury prone. That's a major career detriment.

Once again, just sayin.

But sure, feel free to continue to talk down to me as if I'm an infant. As long as it produces positive effects for youself, I see no reason for you to stop.

Being injury-prone is what's hurt K.J.'s legacy most of all, and that's understandable. However, we should also understand context, and I'll copy a post of mine from earlier in the thread:

Injuries are the knock on K.J., and that's understandable. However, you also have to understand the injuries. Some feel that in the history of the NBA, no one has penetrated the lane and attacked the basket like K.J., and he played in an extremely physical era. As Danny Ainge once said, in the 1990s, referees just stopped calling fouls, and K.J. paid the price. To quote a post of mine:

As the '95-'96 ESPN NBA preview noted, when K.J. was hot, it seemed like the only way to stop him was to hurt him. Well, don't think that teams didn't realize that and didn't try to make him pay a price when he rocketed through lane and attacked the rim. In 2001, an Arizona Republic sportswriter (Norm Frauenheim) recalled that opponents would sometimes pummel K.J. into the floor at old Veterans Memorial Coliseum in Phoenix so hard that it seemed as if the earth was shaking.

In today's NBA, I'd bet that K.J. would hold up much better. Besides, Tiny Archibald played in 876 of 1,148 potential regular season games over the 14-season span of his career (1971-1984), a 76.3% rate. K.J., meanwhile, played in 729 of 902 potential regular season games over the 11-season span of his career (1988-1998), an 80.8% rate (I'm not counting K.J.'s brief comeback in the spring of 2000 when he popped out of a two-year, official retirement to help the Suns after Jason Kidd broke his ankle). And K.J. played in 105 of 106 potential playoff games (99.1%).

[GMATCallahan]

RidonK, if you don't know what you are talking about, don't interfere.


I am guessing you counted the last year 2000? Kevin Johnson only played in the end of the year because Jason Kidd hurt his ankle and had to sit out some games in the playoffs. So Kevin Johnson, comes OUT OF RETIREMENT, to play a couple of games in the end of the season, and play for Kidd in the playoffs at the end. Though he didn't make much of a difference, they got out of the 1st round with Kidd only playing 1 game in the 1st round series. And that was the only time Kidd got out of the first round in the West as well. (The other team's star player was also out)


I doubt you were old enough to remember all of that so you added 2000 as part of KJ's career, but he didn't even get injured that year, and came out of retirement just to help give his team a boost.

And although it didn't necessarily reveal itself in the numbers, K.J. actually made a huge difference for the Suns down the stretch in 2000. To quote a post of mine from the ESPN board:

In the spring of 2000, K.J. popped out of a two-year retirement to help fill-in for an injured Kidd. In Game One of the Western Conference First Round versus the defending champion Spurs and their fabled defense in San Antonio, it was K.J.'s uncanny ability to orchestrate the half-court offense that pushed the Suns over the top. Playing on virtually one leg because of a strained groin muscle, K.J. shot just 1-6 from the field, but as long as he was on the floor, you just knew that Phoenix would win the game, regardless of whether they were up by a point or down by a point. One just felt that with the ball in his hands, he would find a way to navigate the storm and create a basket when it was necessary. Inside the final minute, he even set up Corie Blount (of all people) for a couple of crucial free throws as the Suns squeaked out a 72-70 slowdown road victory.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...S20000422.html

Earlier that spring, NBC telecast a Suns-Kings game in Sacramento and used assists and turnovers to reveal the difference in how the out-of-retirement K.J. and the flashy youngster Jason "White Chocolate" Williams could run an offense. K.J. recorded 9 assists against 2 turnovers in 27 minutes off the bench, whereas Williams played 39 minutes and recorded 3 assists versus 4 turnovers. Naturally, the Suns won.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...C20000409.html

And in Game Three of that Suns-Spurs series, San Antonio was on the verge of blowing out Phoenix in the first quarter before K.J. entered the game.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...O20000429.html

In Game One, he recorded the game-high assist total (6 in 25 minutes off the bench, when no one else on either side posted more than 4), and in Game Three, K.J. tied for the game's second-highest assist total (6 in 26 minutes off the bench).

I'll always remember K.J.'s performance in Game One of that series as one of his greatest. Despite playing on one leg because of a groin strain that robbed him of his explosiveness, and despite having just popped out of a two-year official retirement, K.J. totally controlled a slow-down game, just working the offense masterfully. It was like seeing a pitcher who ordinarily would have thrown 99 miles per hour being reduced to 79 by an arm injury and yet still winning the game with guile, control, and command. Instead of winning a track meet, as he would in his prime, K.J. won a chess match.

Without K.J. in that series, San Antonio would have swept Phoenix, 3-0, even without Duncan. With K.J., even the hobbled, out-of-retirement version, the Suns won a playoff series for the only time in a nine-season span (1996-2004).

Also, in the six regular season games that K.J. played that year, he shot .571 from the field, 1.000 on threes (albeit in just one attempt), and 1.000 from the free throw line. During his second game back, versus the Lakers, Marv Albert on TNT noted that usually when players (such as Michael Jordan in '95) return from a long layoff (let alone a retirement), they struggle with their shot. Mike Fratello responded to Albert by saying, "Well, he's just a great athlete" (in 1986, the Oakland Athletics drafted K.J. as a shortstop and he played briefly in their minor league system).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...O20000404.html