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  1. #61
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    Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

    I'll just post top 10s each season starting from '02

    2002
    1. Shaquille O'Neal
    2. Tim Duncan
    3. Kobe Bryant
    4. Kevin Garnett
    5. Jason Kidd
    6. Tracy McGrady
    7. Paul Pierce
    8. Chris Webber
    9. Dirk Nowitzki
    10. Allen Iverson

    2003
    1. Tim Duncan
    2. Kevin Garnett
    3. Kobe Bryant
    4. Tracy McGrady
    5. Shaquille O'Neal
    6. Jason Kidd
    7. Dirk Nowitzki
    8. Paul Pierce
    9. Chris Webber
    10. Allen Iverson

    2004
    1. Kevin Garnett
    2. Shaquille O'Neal
    3. Tim Duncan
    4. Kobe Bryant
    5. Jermaine O'Neal
    6. Dirk Nowitzki
    7. Jason Kidd
    8. Peja Stojakovic
    9. Tracy McGrady
    10. Paul Pierce

    2005
    1. Tim Duncan
    2. Steve Nash
    3. Shaquille O'Neal
    4. Kevin Garnett
    5. Dirk Nowitzki
    6. Dwyane Wade
    7. Kobe Bryant
    8. Tracy McGrady
    9. Allen Iverson
    10. LeBron James

    2006
    1. Kobe Bryant
    2. Dwyane Wade
    3. Dirk Nowitzki
    4. Steve Nash
    5. LeBron James
    6. Tim Duncan
    7. Kevin Garnett
    8. Elton Brand
    9. Paul Pierce
    10. Shaquille O'Neal

    2007
    1. Kobe Bryant
    2. Tim Duncan
    3. Steve Nash
    4. Dirk Nowitzki
    5. LeBron James
    6. Kevin Garnett
    7. Yao Ming
    8. Dwyane Wade
    9. Carmelo Anthony
    10. Vince Carter

    2008
    1. Kobe Bryant
    2. Chris Paul
    3. LeBron James
    4. Kevin Garnett
    5. Tim Duncan
    6. Dirk Nowitzki
    7. Deron Williams
    8. Steve Nash
    9. Dwight Howard
    10. Paul Pierce

    2009
    1. LeBron James
    2. Kobe Bryant
    3. Dwyane Wade
    4. Chris Paul
    5. Yao Ming
    6. Dwight Howard
    7. Dirk Nowitzki
    8. Brandon Roy
    9. Deron Williams
    10. Paul Pierce

  2. #62
    I eat cheese oolalaa's Avatar
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    Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234

    2012....
    1. Lebron James
    2. Kevin Durant
    3. Kobe Bryant
    4. Chris Paul
    5. Dwight Howard
    6. Kevin Love
    7. Rajon Rondo
    8. Dwyane Wade
    9. Russell Westbrook
    10. Andrew Bynum
    11. Tony Parker
    12. Tim Duncan
    13. Kevin Garnett
    14. Deron Williams
    15. Derrick Rose

    Well, I'd drop Kobe below Paul and Howard for sure. Paul would be top 3 for me and Howard top 4. Love is quite a bit too high, he's never seemed like a player approaching top 5 status to me.
    I think my criteria is slightly different to yours. Im judging who had the best season, rather than exclusively judging who the better player was. I certainly don't dismiss that but maybe you can see why I have Kobe ahead of Howard, for example. Howard was dealing with a lot of distractions off the court. He was mailing in a lot of games. His leadership was non existent (It's never been good anyway). And let's not forget that Howard, STILL, is an incredibly limited offensive player.

    Kobe, on the other hand, had a focus and determination like I hadn't seen since '08. Sure, his desperation to prove to everyone that he was still an elite player cost his team a few games (Definitely should have defered to Bynum a bit more) but I would take that over a half hearted effort anyday.

    It was close between CP3 and Kobe, though. It could have gone either way.


    I somewhat agree with you about Kevin Love. A lot of those stats he puts up are rather empty. He doesn't affect the game as much as he should. I'm not very comfortable with him being at #6, either. However, of the players behind him, who was better last year?

    Rondo? He was really great in the playoffs but he had a much better team around him and a much worse regular season. Wade? His jumper was a disgrace the whole year and with his nagging knee and leg injuries, he couldn't even do what has made him great his whole career - i.e get to the line at will. Westbrook? A point guard should not be dribbling the ball up the court and jacking up mid range jumpers without so much as even looking at his teammates. The OVERWHELMING reason OKC beat the Spurs in the WCFs was because, from game 3 onwards, Westbrook decided to become a facilitator. The ball was moving. When the ball is moving, OKC are UNBEATABLE. Bynum? Blame Kobe. Duncan & KG? Their defense has slipped enough to where I cannot ignore the BIG offensive discrepancy. Dwill? Similar scenario to Howard.

    Also, if Love plays almost exactly the same next year as he did this year, I'm pretty sure he will be move down the list, simply because quite a few players will naturally improve and/or be rejuvinated, and will overtake him. I expect Wade, Westbrook (Perhaps more in hope than expectation), DWill, Rondo (If he can reproduce his playoff from in the regular season), Rose (Fingers crossed) and maybe even Griffin to overtake him. He will probably end up being a borderline top 10 player, which is where he belongs.


    2011....
    1. Dirk Nowitzki
    2. Dwyane Wade
    3. Lebron James
    4. Dwight Howard
    5. Kevin Durant
    6. Derrick Rose
    7. Chris Paul
    8. Kobe Bryant
    9. Zach Randolph
    10. Deron Williams
    11. Carmelo Anthony
    12. Amare Stoudemire
    13. Steve Nash
    14. Paul Pierce
    15. LaMarcus Aldridge

    It's pretty debatable, the top 4 can be in any order, but I'd go with lebron and Howard at 1 and 2, and I haven't decided on who would be 3rd between Wade and Dirk. I definitely don't think Randolph was top 9, though. Pau Gasol was also still top 15 at least to me despite the poor playoffs.
    I can't simply dismiss a choke job as big as Lebron's in the finals. And, as far as I'm concerned, Dirk posted one of the great playoff runs in history - that should give him the nod over Wade. He led a team with ZERO All Stars to a championship. He was 'clutch' over and over and over again. He made MULTIPLE game winners in the finals (How many players can say that?).


    Randolph was really, really good the entire year, not just the playoffs. He was playing both ends of the floor, rebounding like a mini Moses Malone (Over 4 offensive rebounds per game), dominating in the post and had an intensity that rubbed off on his teammates. Outside of Dirk and pre All Star break Stoudemire, he was definitely the power forward that impressed me most. I gave him the nod over DWill, Melo and Amare becuase they only produced for half the season.


    Gasol and Aldridge were close, but I was impressed with the fact that Portalnd were still a very relevant team, despite Brandon Roy's injuries.


    2010....
    1. Kobe Bryant
    2. Dwyane Wade
    3. Lebron James
    4. Dwight Howard
    5. Dirk Nowitzki
    6. Steve Nash
    7. Deron Williams
    8. Carmelo Anthony
    9. Pau Gasol
    10. Kevin Durant
    11. Rajon Rondo
    12. Tim Duncan
    13. Chris Bosh
    14. Paul Pierce
    15. Brandon Roy

    I understand why some rank Kobe 1st, but Lebron was still the best player to me despite those last 3 games vs Boston.

    I definitely don't understand Wade over Lebron, though. Wade is clearly 3rd that year behind Lebron and Kobe, imo. His jump shot completely diappeared and he was out of shape and playing well below his standards to start the season. Wade was averaging 26.3 ppg, 5 rpg, 6.1 apg on just 43.9% shooting in his first 2 months or first 30 games that season. I understand Wade over Kobe more because he was playing very poorly due to injuries from January until the end of the OKC series when he got his knee drained. And hurting the team at times because he was trying to shoot himself out of the But he was having an MVP type season the first 2 months killing guys in the post and scoring more efficiently and consistently than I've seen him, and was back to playing very well after the 1st round.

    I wouldn't put Rondo or Duncan at that stage ahead of Bosh either, particularly not Rondo, who I think should be in the top 15-20 range.
    lebron's psyche was made out of paper mache. You stood a much better chance at winning a title if Kobe or Wade was your best player.


    I'm a big Rondo fan. With pierce and particuarly KG slipping, I think he became the Cs best player in 2010 (1a/1b with pierce). His jumper had improved to the point where it was now only incredibly mediocre, compared to woefully bad the previous season (He had also developed that short range floater of his to where it was now a real weapon). Along with Nash, he was the best playmaker/passer in the league. Let's not discount his great rebounding and defense, either.

    Boston made it to the finals, and, even though he was poor against L.A, that has to count for something. It would be ridiculous to just dismiss this. He completely DESTROYED Mo Williams in the ECSFs (I know they weren't always guarding each other, but still). He chucked up a 29/18/13 & 2stl clinic in the PIVATOL game 4 (One of the underrated playoff performances of all time) and, ultimately, was the best player in a series that had Lebron James in it.


    Bosh sacrificed his defense (Which has always been exceedingly average to begin with) in order to put up a career high 24ppg. I didn't see the commitment on that end that he had shown in previous years. I remember thinking his overall effort was lacking and I think this came to light when Toronto slipped from the 20th ranked defense in '09 to the 27th ranked defense in '10.

    He's also one of these players where his "impact" doesn't sufficiently match the numbers he puts up. In 2010, Duncan was still a much better passer/facilitator, a better rebounder, much better defensively, a better shot blocker and much better "intangibly" (Certainly a better "leader", for example). All of this outweighs Bosh's scoring edge....surely?
    Last edited by oolalaa; 07-06-2012 at 12:51 PM.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

    Quote Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
    I think we agree that a lot times there is more than one correct/fair spot to rank a player based on talent. For example Shaq and Garnett from 2003-2005
    I definitely agree with that.

    When it's that close in terms of skill/impact, is it fair to determine which player gets the higher ranking based on how well he led/fit in with his team?
    Yeah, if it's a virtual tie then I often go to those things which are "tiebreakers", because there are other factors that affect how much a player can help their team win that season.

    Because Shaq did not show great leadership in 2003 and 2004 I have Garnett above him, because he did in 2005, I gave him the nod over KG
    I can agree with that, though I also think KG just flat out played better than anyone in '04. But that is the reason I gave KG the nod over Shaq in '03, but it was very tough as we both said. I didn't have as much of a problem with Shaq's leadership in '04, he showed up quite a bit lighter than he had been in '03, and the Shaq/Kobe feud died down a bit after the preseason. They were right there in the finals with a shot at a championship.

    Quote Originally Posted by oolalaa
    Completely agree. He flat out REGRESSED in 2007, compared to '06. I've noticed that a lot of superstars seem to do this - after ascending for 3 straight years upon entering the league, they regress in their 4th year (as a starter). Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe and Tmac (As well as many more who I can't remember off the top of my head) all experienced a 4th year slump.

    Lebron's entire '07 season rested on one game.
    I agree that Lebron regressed, I thought that throughout the season. His jump shot really bothered me. But I'm not sure those other players really regressed Lebron did.

    Shaq didn't really regress to me in '96. He actually looked a little more skilled, and I thought he continued to improve his skills until the early 00's.

    the thing about Shaq in '96 is that he missed the first 22 games after breaking his thumb in the preseason, and it was also the first year he started lifting weights and bulked up significantly to 332 pounds. So he started the season a little slower, and Penny had also started the season off playing like the MVP of the league in his absence, and Orlando ended up winning 60 games so those factors also dropped Shaq's minutes to just 36 per game.

    I've never heard anything to suggest Kareem regressed in his 4th season, he still won 60 games and posted the best numbers in the league, though he was a real disappointment in the playoffs, but he had been sort of disappointing in the '72 playofs, and the '73 upset was vs Nate Thurmond's Warrio, and Rick Barry had also returned to the NBA. Thurmond always gave Kareem a lot of trouble and a team with both Barry and Thurmond is very dangerous.

    But the only real disappointment was the upset loss, which I don't think of as really regressing. I think that was also the year Kareem had bodyguards traveling with him because of the black muslims at the time.

    I'm not sure if T-Mac really regressed from year 3 to year 4 as a starter. I think it was more that his '03 season was so good that it's tough to go up from there. And by that point he also wanted out from Orlando, and really wasn't playing quite as hard. He pretty much still had the ability, though. His ability didn't start to decline until after his first season in Houston when his career was really derailed by injuries.

    And Kobe's 4th year as a starter was '02, and I also don't think he deferred. He just matured more that year and accepted his role from the start, while it had taken him until the second half and the playoffs to accept his role. But there wasn't the cancerous selfish play from the first 2-3 months of the '00-'01 season. Phil Jackson, Robert Horry and others were talking about Kobe's maturation in the '02 season and about how he was making passes he wouldn't have made a year ago.

    He could still go off as evidenced by his 56 points in 3rd quarters vs Memphis, and while he wasn't as consistent or as amazing in the '02 playoffs. He came up big in 4th quarters and that was really when he was establishing himself as the premier clutch player in the league, particularly in the Spurs series with Shaq limited by injuries. Kobe was the best player in that series which included the 2 best players in the league. Shaq and Duncan.

    So I see a difference between Lebron and the others. The others you mentioned didn't have a season quite as good as their 3rd due to a variety of factors, but they didn't seem any less capable of it, or didn't seem to lose a skill. Lebron did in his 4th season with all of the improvement he had made on his jump shot going out the window.

    As far as your explanations for your criteria and selection, you did a good job of explaining your point of view in your last post.

    Quote Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
    2002
    1. Shaquille O'Neal
    2. Tim Duncan
    3. Kobe Bryant
    4. Kevin Garnett
    5. Jason Kidd
    6. Tracy McGrady
    7. Paul Pierce
    8. Chris Webber
    9. Dirk Nowitzki
    10. Allen Iverson
    Looks good, I don't think Kidd was a better player than McGrady, but a lot would have him above T-Mac in '02. Pierce over C-Webb is interesting, care to explain that one? Was it because of Webber missing 28 games in the regular season?

    2003
    1. Tim Duncan
    2. Kevin Garnett
    3. Kobe Bryant
    4. Tracy McGrady
    5. Shaquille O'Neal
    6. Jason Kidd
    7. Dirk Nowitzki
    8. Paul Pierce
    9. Chris Webber
    10. Allen Iverson
    Nothing that I can disagree with strongly on this one. I don't see as strong of a case for Kobe over T-Mac, but I don't see a real difference in their ability so I can't really complain.

    2004
    1. Kevin Garnett
    2. Shaquille O'Neal
    3. Tim Duncan
    4. Kobe Bryant
    5. Jermaine O'Neal
    6. Dirk Nowitzki
    7. Jason Kidd
    8. Peja Stojakovic
    9. Tracy McGrady
    10. Paul Pierce
    This is a tough year, I see you penalized T-Mac for his team's season. Can't argue too much, i thought about that too, and had a tough time putting him as high as I did. I really didn't want to put him top 5. I'm guessing that Shaq was over Duncan because he played much better in the Laker/Spurs series?

    2005
    1. Tim Duncan
    2. Steve Nash
    3. Shaquille O'Neal
    4. Kevin Garnett
    5. Dirk Nowitzki
    6. Dwyane Wade
    7. Kobe Bryant
    8. Tracy McGrady
    9. Allen Iverson
    10. LeBron James
    T-Mac is too low, imo. I really don't see what Kobe did to get over T-Mac this year. Nash at 2 is interesting, but it makes sense. He is probably now my choice for MVP that year and he followed it up with a very impressive playoff run, while Shaq was limited in the playoffs.

    2006
    1. Kobe Bryant
    2. Dwyane Wade
    3. Dirk Nowitzki
    4. Steve Nash
    5. LeBron James
    6. Tim Duncan
    7. Kevin Garnett
    8. Elton Brand
    9. Paul Pierce
    10. Shaquille O'Neal
    This one looks good, I wouldn't agree with Nash over Lebron, and probably not Duncan either. The level Duncan played at in the WCSF got him at least top 5 for me. And Duncan was always around the top 1-3 range every other year so i think that dropping him to 5th is penalizing him enough for being limited in the regular season with plantar fasciitis.

    2007
    1. Kobe Bryant
    2. Tim Duncan
    3. Steve Nash
    4. Dirk Nowitzki
    5. LeBron James
    6. Kevin Garnett
    7. Yao Ming
    8. Dwyane Wade
    9. Carmelo Anthony
    10. Vince Carter
    Looks solid, I've gone back on Carter vs T-Mac, though. T-Mac wasn't as terrible vs Utah as Carter was vs Cleveland. I liked Carter's scoring more by this point, he was more aggressive, settled less, but seemed like a better pure shooter and had an insane season as far as clutch play. T-Mac was the better passer and playmaker, but Carter had become quite good. Though T-Mac did average a career high 6.5 apg, and was putting up Orlando numbers for a long stretch after he returned with Yao out.

    2008
    1. Kobe Bryant
    2. Chris Paul
    3. LeBron James
    4. Kevin Garnett
    5. Tim Duncan
    6. Dirk Nowitzki
    7. Deron Williams
    8. Steve Nash
    9. Dwight Howard
    10. Paul Pierce
    Our top 5s are the same and I gave Dirk a lot of consideration over Dwight, but Dwight at 9 is too low, imo. I don't think Deron or even Nash(considering his play in the second half) deserved to be over him.

    2009
    1. LeBron James
    2. Kobe Bryant
    3. Dwyane Wade
    4. Chris Paul
    5. Yao Ming
    6. Dwight Howard
    7. Dirk Nowitzki
    8. Brandon Roy
    9. Deron Williams
    10. Paul Pierce
    Only thing that really stands out is Yao being too high, imo. Pierce in the top 10 is interesting. He was still pretty much capable of scoring like he was in his prime if you look at how his game never really changed, and did average 24 ppg in 24 games without KG. I'd prefer Gasol for that spot, but Pierce definitely had a case.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
    Looks good, I don't think Kidd was a better player than McGrady, but a lot would have him above T-Mac in '02. Pierce over C-Webb is interesting, care to explain that one? Was it because of Webber missing 28 games in the regular season?
    I'm considering putting both Mcgrady and Pierce above Kidd to be honest because I think they were both better. I actually have Pierce above Kidd in my all-time list. McGrady is no where near though due to short peak, negative intangibles, etc.

    I have Pierce above C-Webb because of the injuries. I didn't like the way he played in that Game 7 in the WCF either where he went super passive. My ranking is not solely based just on talent and individual ability but also how well that player played that season specifically how many games played otherwise Yao would be in the top 10 for 2008 opposed to not there at all.


    Nothing that I can disagree with strongly on this one. I don't see as strong of a case for Kobe over T-Mac, but I don't see a real difference in their ability so I can't really complain.
    Superior defense, superior playmaking. This was the season that Tmac pretty much stopped playing defense and just focused completely on offense similar to Kobe's '06-'07 season. I personally don't even think '03 McGrady was his best season, it was his best statistical season but stats aren't everything. I think '02 and/or maybe even his '01 season was better.

    I'm guessing that Shaq was over Duncan because he played much better in the Laker/Spurs series?
    Yep, Duncan doesn't get as much of a blackmark as many other greats get for poor series. He was the favorite of this series, he was backdoor swept, and most importantly he didn't play well in that series.

    T-Mac is too low, imo. I really don't see what Kobe did to get over T-Mac this year. Nash at 2 is interesting, but it makes sense. He is probably now my choice for MVP that year and he followed it up with a very impressive playoff run, while Shaq was limited in the playoffs.
    Kobe was just a better overall player. Kobe missed a decent amount of games but nothing serious like 20+. I believe he only missed like 15 so it's not that big of a deal in my opinion. Kobe was still statistically superior in this season and in my opinion if you replaced Tmac with Kobe on those Rockets, the Rockets would have gotten past the 1st round.

    Tmac gets too much credit for what he did in this post-season. The Mavericks used to be the team that every star player would get amazing stats against specifically perimeter players. It was only when Marion and Chandler arrived before Dallas started playing good/great defense especially on star players but before then they were the team that stars would get their numbers but they would still find a way to win.


    Looks solid, I've gone back on Carter vs T-Mac, though. T-Mac wasn't as terrible vs Utah as Carter was vs Cleveland. I liked Carter's scoring more by this point, he was more aggressive, settled less, but seemed like a better pure shooter and had an insane season as far as clutch play. T-Mac was the better passer and playmaker, but Carter had become quite good. Though T-Mac did average a career high 6.5 apg, and was putting up Orlando numbers for a long stretch after he returned with Yao out.
    True, but VC played against a defensive oriented Cleveland team while Tmac just faced some average defensive team in Utah so I think we have to take it into context. If they both played similar defensive teams then I would consider putting Tmac above VC but since he didn't, I have VC above Tmac. I'm actually considering putting Kidd over both but I remember I had VC at #10 when I was ranking this season so I'll stick with him.

    Our top 5s are the same and I gave Dirk a lot of consideration over Dwight, but Dwight at 9 is too low, imo. I don't think Deron or even Nash(considering his play in the second half) deserved to be over him.
    I wasn't too impressed with Dwight this season but I'll probably put Dwight over Nash, not Deron though. Deron was pretty good this season but it was overshadowed by CP3's MVPs season.
    Only thing that really stands out is Yao being too high, imo. Pierce in the top 10 is interesting. He was still pretty much capable of scoring like he was in his prime if you look at how his game never really changed, and did average 24 ppg in 24 games without KG. I'd prefer Gasol for that spot, but Pierce definitely had a case.
    Yao is either 5/6 to me with Dwight and I go with Yao because Dwight was not yet polished or skilled enough offensively. Yao was always underrated defensively too so it's not like that area isn't close. Yao didn't put up big statistical numbers this season but he made a massive impact on the court if you check out +/-, adjusted plus/minus, RAPM stats.

    I also think his stats were down this season because he didn't have a passer to play with. The best passer on the team was young Kyle Lowry who only played with the 2nd unit. The best passer that he played with when he was out there was probably Shane Battier so he didn't have as much of a chance to get big numbers specifically scoring/offensive numbers but he still made his presence felt with double teams on and away from the ball.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

    Quote Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
    I'm considering putting both Mcgrady and Pierce above Kidd to be honest because I think they were both better. I actually have Pierce above Kidd in my all-time list. McGrady is no where near though due to short peak, negative intangibles, etc.

    I have Pierce above C-Webb because of the injuries. I didn't like the way he played in that Game 7 in the WCF either where he went super passive. My ranking is not solely based just on talent and individual ability but also how well that player played that season specifically how many games played otherwise Yao would be in the top 10 for 2008 opposed to not there at all.
    Thanks for the explanations. I also factor in the season to some extent, and I'd agree that Yao would be higher. He was still probably the best center. Dwight had defense and rebounding, but he was raw offensively and exposed by the Pistons, particularly Jason Maxiell. Yao was not only the superior offensive player by that point, but scoring more too.

    Missing 27 games probably wouldn't have kept him out, but missing the playoffs on top of that is what did it. Yao returning healthy for the playoffs is why he made the '07 top 10 despite missing 34 games.

    Superior defense, superior playmaking. This was the season that Tmac pretty much stopped playing defense and just focused completely on offense similar to Kobe's '06-'07 season. I personally don't even think '03 McGrady was his best season, it was his best statistical season but stats aren't everything. I think '02 and/or maybe even his '01 season was better.
    I don't think Kobe's defense was a big advantage by that point, he was better, but his defense slipped too. He was gambling more, and his effort wasn't as consistent. Phil Jackson called him out on gambling and not playing fundamentally sound defense anymore.

    McGrady was every bit the passer Kobe was, imo, and also averaged almost as many assists while averaging while averaging almost 1 less turnover over per game.

    McGrady's superior statistical season, particularly with nobody else on his team for the defense to focus on was a part of what made him the clear choice for me.

    In '02, I thought they were very close, but clutch play, the championship and a more significant defensive advantage gave the clear edge to Kobe. But he didn't really show any intangible advantage in '03, imo and didn't have the championship advantage that year.

    Kobe was just a better overall player. Kobe missed a decent amount of games but nothing serious like 20+. I believe he only missed like 15 so it's not that big of a deal in my opinion. Kobe was still statistically superior in this season and in my opinion if you replaced Tmac with Kobe on those Rockets, the Rockets would have gotten past the 1st round.
    I don't think Kobe was better that year, he was only shooting about 40% outside the triangle when Rudy T was there while averaging 4.5 turnovers and once Frank Hamblen started putting the triangle back in, Kobe's numbers were better, but they could barely win a game.

    And just watched them, Kobe seemed to have more of a down year, while McGrady had one of his most impressive seasons to me.

    I don't understand why you think the Rockets win with '05 Kobe in T-Mac's place. T-Mac played extremely well in that series in about every aspect of the game. Dallas just had a deeper, more balanced team, of course, T-Mac didn't have a very good game 7, but he had a great game 6 to fight off elimination.

    Tmac gets too much credit for what he did in this post-season. The Mavericks used to be the team that every star player would get amazing stats against specifically perimeter players. It was only when Marion and Chandler arrived before Dallas started playing good/great defense especially on star players but before then they were the team that stars would get their numbers but they would still find a way to win.
    They started playing better defense under Avery Johnson and finished the season 16-2.

    True, but VC played against a defensive oriented Cleveland team while Tmac just faced some average defensive team in Utah so I think we have to take it into context. If they both played similar defensive teams then I would consider putting Tmac above VC but since he didn't, I have VC above Tmac. I'm actually considering putting Kidd over both but I remember I had VC at #10 when I was ranking this season so I'll stick with him.
    Yeah, I thought it was close anyway, i'm still not that convinced one way or the other.

    Yao is either 5/6 to me with Dwight and I go with Yao because Dwight was not yet polished or skilled enough offensively. Yao was always underrated defensively too so it's not like that area isn't close. Yao didn't put up big statistical numbers this season but he made a massive impact on the court if you check out +/-, adjusted plus/minus, RAPM stats.
    I have looked at +/- occasionally, but I have no idea what adjusted plus/minus is or RAPM.

    Yao did draw a ton of defensive attention, that is one thing that's overlooked about his impact in the portland series, especially that blowout game 1 when he was 9 for 9 or something like that. I didn't have as much of a problem with Dwight's offensive game this season, he was playing with more confidence, and he did have really big offensive series vs Philly and Cleveland, but anchoring the number 1 ranked defensively was a big part of him making my top 5, as well as leading Orlando to the finals. Obviously Boston was the best defensive team when KG was healthy, and Cleveland was right there. Also, defensive rating doesn't account for Orlando's perimeter defense which made them vulnerable vs elite perimeter scorers. But most of their defensive success was owed to Dwight.

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    Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
    Thanks for the explanations. I also factor in the season to some extent, and I'd agree that Yao would be higher. He was still probably the best center. Dwight had defense and rebounding, but he was raw offensively and exposed by the Pistons, particularly Jason Maxiell. Yao was not only the superior offensive player by that point, but scoring more too.
    Agreed. Yao was still the best Center when healthy but he wasn't healthy so he wasn't in my top 10.
    I don't think Kobe's defense was a big advantage by that point, he was better, but his defense slipped too. He was gambling more, and his effort wasn't as consistent. Phil Jackson called him out on gambling and not playing fundamentally sound defense anymore.
    It was big enough of an advantage in my opinion and even if Kobe was over gambling and such, it was still better defense than whatever the heck McGrady was playing.


    McGrady was every bit the passer Kobe was, imo, and also averaged almost as many assists while averaging while averaging almost 1 less turnover over per game.

    McGrady's superior statistical season, particularly with nobody else on his team for the defense to focus on was a part of what made him the clear choice for me.
    I would give Kobe the slight edge. McGrady became a comparable and probably a better passer in Houston though.

    As for the 2nd part, didn't' Kobe put up big numbers even when Shaq was out?

    I don't understand why you think the Rockets win with '05 Kobe in T-Mac's place. T-Mac played extremely well in that series in about every aspect of the game. Dallas just had a deeper, more balanced team, of course, T-Mac didn't have a very good game 7, but he had a great game 6 to fight off elimination.
    I believe Kobe would have been better since he would always kill teams from Texas when he was in his prime.

    They started playing better defense under Avery Johnson and finished the season 16-2.
    Even with Avery Johnson, star players would still get big numbers against that team but the Mavericks would still find a way to win anyways. I feel like it was probably by design to let the opponent stars get big numbers but stop everyone else.

    If you look up all the star players that have went up against the Mavericks in the post-season, you would see that they all put up big numbers

    '05 Tmac and Yao
    '06 Duncan and Manu
    '06 Diaw, Marion, and Nash
    '06 Wade
    '07 Baron
    '08 CP3 and West
    '09 Parker
    '09 Melo and Billups

    The trend stop in '10 when they acquired Shawn Marion but seriously those dudes put up extremely huge numbers and bigger numbers against Dallas than what they would normally put.


    I have looked at +/- occasionally, but I have no idea what adjusted plus/minus is or RAPM.
    Adjusted plus minus factors in both offense and defense +/- opposed to just one overall regular +/- does.

    http://www.nbastuffer.com/component/...tter,A/page,1/

    What Adjusted Plus-Minus (APM) in brief is:
    Over a given time period, the basic plus-minus results are getting adjusted to account for both the teammates and the opponents on the court.
    What Adjusted Plus-Minus does:
    It reflects the impact of each player on his team's scoring margin after controlling for the strength of every teammate and every opponent during each minute he's on the court.
    What Adjusted Plus-Minus incorporates:
    Every time segment a player is in a game, adjusted plus-minus tracks:
    (1) The other nine players on the floor,
    (2) The length of the segment,
    (3) The score at the start and at the end of the segment.
    How to interpret Adjusted Plus-Minus numbers:
    Adjusted +/- ratings indicate how many additional points are contributed to a team’s scoring margin by a given player in comparison to the league-average player whose adjusted +/- value is zero over the span of a typical game. It is assumpted that in a typical game a team has 100 offensive and 100 defensive possessions. For example, if a +6.5 "adjusted +/-" player is on the floor with 4 average teammates, his team will average about 6.5 points better per 100 possessions than 5 average players would.
    RAPM is regularized adjusted plus minus.

    http://www.nbastuffer.com/component/...%20%28RAPM%29/
    In "Regularized Adjusted Plus-Minus" (RAPM), the goal is to provide more accurate results by employing a special technique called "ridge regression" (a.k.a. regularization). It significantly reduces standard errors in Adjusted Plus-Minus (APM).
    Here are the 2009 RAPM rankings.

    http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking09


    Quote Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
    Yao did draw a ton of defensive attention, that is one thing that's overlooked about his impact in the portland series, especially that blowout game 1 when he was 9 for 9 or something like that. I didn't have as much of a problem with Dwight's offensive game this season, he was playing with more confidence, and he did have really big offensive series vs Philly and Cleveland, but anchoring the number 1 ranked defensively was a big part of him making my top 5, as well as leading Orlando to the finals. Obviously Boston was the best defensive team when KG was healthy, and Cleveland was right there. Also, defensive rating doesn't account for Orlando's perimeter defense which made them vulnerable vs elite perimeter scorers. But most of their defensive success was owed to Dwight.
    I forgot to respond to this cause I was caught up explaining APM and RAPMs.

    I believe SVG should get a lot of credit for that defense. Too many times does an individual player get all the credit for a defensive success when a lot of times it is because of the coach's great defensive schemes and defensive focus. SVG is a defensive minded coach. I agree that Dwight should get the most credit because he is the anchor but SVG deserves a decent amount of credit too.

    Magic in '09 were the team that perimeter players would kill similar to Dallas though.

    I think Yao should still be #5 or #6 in this season because of his great impact and all-around play. He was not just a great offensive player but a solid rebounder and a great defender. This alone should put him above the likes of Roy, Deron, and Dirk otherwise I believe those three should also be ranked above Dwight because the same argument as to why Roy, Deron, and Dirk are better than Yao are probably the same reasons why he should also be listed above Dwight.

    I have no problem with Dwight over Yao in '09 but I believe if this is the case then Yao should be right behind him considering how you have him that high due to his great and enormous overall impact specifically defensive impact.
    Last edited by StateOfMind12; 07-06-2012 at 03:34 PM.

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    Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

    Gilbert Arenas is a little bit too low on these lists for 07. Consider that he was a top 5 MVP candidate for most of the season, led the Wizards to the top record in the East up until the All-Star break, and finished All-NBA 2nd team despite missing the last 15 games of the season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
    It was big enough of an advantage in my opinion and even if Kobe was over gambling and such, it was still better defense than whatever the heck McGrady was playing.
    I think it takes a pretty special perimeter defender to make that large of a difference in the player's overall impact, and usually it's guys who excel more at help defense. And in Kobe's best defensive seasons, his man to man defense was more notable.

    I would give Kobe the slight edge. McGrady became a comparable and probably a better passer in Houston though.
    I think that he was already about as good as he'd ever be as a passer. He was just in more of a facilitator role in Houston. Particularly '07, and also '08. But that's also because

    As for the 2nd part, didn't' Kobe put up big numbers even when Shaq was out?
    Yeah, but still not as good as T-Mac's season numbers.

    32.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 5.8 apg, 3.5 TO, 2.1 spg, 43.6 FG%, 52.1 TS%

    He was at T-Mac's scoring average, but using 3 more shots per game to get there(27.2 in this stretch for Kobe vs 24.2 for T-Mac), about the same assist numbers, but much more worse assist to turnover ratio. Rebounding is very impressive, though. The added weight while being in his athletic prime seemed to make him a better rebounder.

    I believe Kobe would have been better since he would always kill teams from Texas when he was in his prime.
    The playoffs are a different story, though. He was a Spur killer every year he played them except '99 and '03, but he didn't have his best series vs Houston in '09. And simply playing a team from Texas doesn't convince me.

    Even with Avery Johnson, star players would still get big numbers against that team but the Mavericks would still find a way to win anyways. I feel like it was probably by design to let the opponent stars get big numbers but stop everyone else.
    It was by design to make Nash a scorer in '05, even though that didn't work. But I didn't think it was with McGrady.

    If you look up all the star players that have went up against the Mavericks in the post-season, you would see that they all put up big numbers

    '05 Tmac and Yao
    '06 Duncan and Manu
    '06 Diaw, Marion, and Nash
    '06 Wade
    '07 Baron
    '08 CP3 and West
    '09 Parker
    '09 Melo and Billups
    Well, you listed some really good players, Several of those series don't belong in the same class as T-Mac's, though. Manu only averaged 21/4/2, although his shooting % were 49/41/87. West averaged 23/7/3 on 48%.

    Regardless, T-Mac played very well in the series in just about every aspect, including his defense. And he played extremely well all year.

    Adjusted plus minus factors in both offense and defense +/- opposed to just one overall regular +/- does.

    http://www.nbastuffer.com/component/...tter,A/page,1/









    RAPM is regularized adjusted plus minus.

    http://www.nbastuffer.com/component/...%20%28RAPM%29/


    Here are the 2009 RAPM rankings.

    http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking09
    Doesn't regular +/- just show you how many points the team outscores the opponent by while that opponent is on the floor?

    I forgot to respond to this cause I was caught up explaining APM and RAPMs.

    I believe SVG should get a lot of credit for that defense. Too many times does an individual player get all the credit for a defensive success when a lot of times it is because of the coach's great defensive schemes and defensive focus. SVG is a defensive minded coach. I agree that Dwight should get the most credit because he is the anchor but SVG deserves a decent amount of credit too.

    Magic in '09 were the team that perimeter players would kill similar to Dallas though.
    I agree that Van Gundy deserves some credit. I actually think that Jeff was the better defensive coach out of the 2, while Stan is the more well rounded coach since he's the superior offensive coach and a good defensive coach himself.

    I think Yao should still be #5 or #6 in this season because of his great impact and all-around play. He was not just a great offensive player but a solid rebounder and a great defender. This alone should put him above the likes of Roy, Deron, and Dirk otherwise I believe those three should also be ranked above Dwight because the same argument as to why Roy, Deron, and Dirk are better than Yao are probably the same reasons why he should also be listed above Dwight.

    I have no problem with Dwight over Yao in '09 but I believe if this is the case then Yao should be right behind him considering how you have him that high due to his great and enormous overall impact specifically defensive impact.
    I did have Yao higher in '09, above some of those perimeter players, but I don't think he has the same case as Dwight. For one, he wasn't the defensive player Dwight was, or nearly as mobile or durable.

    Plus, the injury in the playoffs was a factor. And I really noticed teams often taking Yao out of games by fronting him at times, and entry passes couldn't be low. But I think it's fair to put him up at 7 above Rpy and Deron. I can't put him any higher than that though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vman23
    Gilbert Arenas is a little bit too low on these lists for 07. Consider that he was a top 5 MVP candidate for most of the season, led the Wizards to the top record in the East up until the All-Star break, and finished All-NBA 2nd team despite missing the last 15 games of the season.
    I thought about that, but I was never a big fan of Gilbert's game. He was a chucker and shot about 42% that year. He has a case to be higher, but the injury that kept him out for the playoffs didn't help. There were a lot of big scorers that year.

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    Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

    Good list overall. There obviously will be some disagreements, but the higher the ranking we disagree, the more it is worth discussing.

    The only #1 pick I disagree with is placing Kobe in 2007 over Tim Duncan.

    I believe this is a case of revisionist history. Back in 2007, almost everyone had Duncan over Kobe, and now almost everyone has Kobe over Duncan. In fact, here is a thread made in 2007 where everyone ranked their Top 5 players:

    http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47980

    Almost everyone had Duncan over Kobe in 2007 as a better player. Notice, this was not a better season ranking, everyone was clearly ranking based on which player was better. To support that statement, most had KG (was on a 32 win team) over Dirk Nowitzki (MVP that season).


    So now to go back and discuss why I choose Duncan over Kobe for 07, and why everyone else from during that time also picked Duncan. He was simply the better player. Bryant was the best player in 2006 I would agree, and he didn't drop much in 2007. However, Duncan at age 30 was still in his prime. In 2006 he suffered injuries and struggled throughout the regular season. But in 2007 he was back to how good he was in at least 2005.

    If the objective of basketball is to win, then this Tim Duncan version was a better basketball player than Kobe ever was. He was a very efficient scorer 20.0ppg on 54.6% FG, while anchoring the best defense (at worst 2nd best) in the NBA. Far greater defensive impact than Kobe while still averaging 20/11. If I had #1 pick going into 2007 for just 1 year, I would easily pick Tim Duncan. Because with him I would have an offensive anchor and defensive anchor and higher my chances of winning than any other player in the NBA. There are just far more teams Duncan could and would make more impact than Kobe. I agree Kobe was a better offensive player at this point, but Duncan was very efficient and could do so much more for your defense while also being one of the top rebounders.

    And in the playoffs, he showed why he was the best, leading his team to the NBA championship. He still had great leadership and stepped up in the playoffs when he needed to. The Spur's biggest series was against the Suns (who had the best record in the NBA) where Tim Duncan had big games like: 33/16, 29/11, 33/19, 24/13/9blk, and so on. There also seems to be a more common misconception Tony Parker was the best on the Spurs since he won Finals MVP. This is completely false and you would get laughed at if you said this in 2007.


    You could argue Kobe Bryant is more individually talented and I would agree. But if your goal is to win the NBA championship, the qualities Duncan provides you the greatest chance to win it. In 2007, everyone knew this. Now I don't know why everyone has forgotten.

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    Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Gifted Mind
    The only #1 pick I disagree with is placing Kobe in 2007 over Tim Duncan.

    I believe this is a case of revisionist history. Back in 2007, almost everyone had Duncan over Kobe, and now almost everyone has Kobe over Duncan. In fact, here is a thread made in 2007 where everyone ranked their Top 5 players:

    http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47980

    Almost everyone had Duncan over Kobe in 2007 as a better player. Notice, this was not a better season ranking, everyone was clearly ranking based on which player was better. To support that statement, most had KG (was on a 32 win team) over Dirk Nowitzki (MVP that season).
    Duncan over Kobe did appear to be the consensus on this board back then, but among players/coaches/media, I remember Kobe being considered the best player from '06-'10(though most on message boards were choose Lebron by '09 and '10). At the time, I thought Kobe was clearly the best from '06-'08, and it wasn't until after I reflected on the '09 season that I thought Lebron had surpassed him.

    So now to go back and discuss why I choose Duncan over Kobe for 07, and why everyone else from during that time also picked Duncan. He was simply the better player. Bryant was the best player in 2006 I would agree, and he didn't drop much in 2007. However, Duncan at age 30 was still in his prime. In 2006 he suffered injuries and struggled throughout the regular season. But in 2007 he was back to how good he was in at least 2005.
    Duncan was clearly limited with plantar fasciitis during the '06 season, and it did affect his ranking, as you can see, I ranked him 5th, which was the only time in my '00-'07 lists that he failed to make the top 2, and I'd throw '99 in there as well when I'd rank him number 1. But Tim still anchored the best defensive team in the league, led them to 63 wins with the same core he won 58 with in '07 except Manu missed more games in '06, and he was back to his old self in the playoffs having what he called his best series vs the Mavs.

    But I do agree he was better overall in '07 due to his consistent health, and while he wasn't as athletic or mobile as he once was, he appeared to have regained some mobility and athleticism compared to his limited '06 season. You could argue that Duncan was still in his prime in '07, although towards the end of it. Aside from not being as athletic as he was in the late 90's/early 00's, his stamina didn't appear to be the same, and I don't think he could play the same big minutes that he once did. But the Spurs were good enough so this wasn't necessary, and his overall effectiveness hadn't fallen off much at all. He was still arguably the best defensive player in the game.

    I also think that Kobe was better in '06, he was more capable of carrying the team for an entire season because he wasn't coming off a knee surgery which took him a while to recover 100% from in '07. He also had some impressive defensive performances vs elite shooting guards in '06, while his defensive effort wasn't consistent due to the scoring load he had to carry, it was considerably better than 2007, which was a subpar season defensively, and impressive considering the circumstances. Kobe was told to carry the '05-'06 Lakers from the start by Phil Jackson because he knew the team had limited talent and that it would take a while for the young players to adjust to the triangle, as well as the fact that he put Lamar Odom in the point forward role. So the gameplan was for the Lakers to win games for the time being on Kobe's back.

    But he did show something he didn't in '06, with the exception of the playoffs vs the Suns. Kobe started off the '06-'07 season in a more conventional role allowing his teammates to shine, this was probably due to 2 reasons. 1 is that they had a year under their belt in the offense and almost every supporting player started off the season better, and also because Kobe wasn't 100% at the start of the season due to knee surgery.

    But while the 35 ppg Kobe from '06 and the second half of the '07 season isn't how you're going to win a title, Kobe was showing a championship style of play early in the season before injuries. Not unlike his '08 approach, except with worse defense and less athleticism.

    But anyway, we both agree that Duncan was better in '06 than '07, while Kobe wasn't quite as good, but pretty close. However, Kobe vs Duncan in '06 wasn't a tough call, so even with this considered, I think Kobe vs Duncan end up being very debatable for '07.

    If the objective of basketball is to win, then this Tim Duncan version was a better basketball player than Kobe ever was. He was a very efficient scorer 20.0ppg on 54.6% FG, while anchoring the best defense (at worst 2nd best) in the NBA. Far greater defensive impact than Kobe while still averaging 20/11. If I had #1 pick going into 2007 for just 1 year, I would easily pick Tim Duncan. Because with him I would have an offensive anchor and defensive anchor and higher my chances of winning than any other player in the NBA. There are just far more teams Duncan could and would make more impact than Kobe. I agree Kobe was a better offensive player at this point, but Duncan was very efficient and could do so much more for your defense while also being one of the top rebounders.

    And in the playoffs, he showed why he was the best, leading his team to the NBA championship. He still had great leadership and stepped up in the playoffs when he needed to. The Spur's biggest series was against the Suns (who had the best record in the NBA) where Tim Duncan had big games like: 33/16, 29/11, 33/19, 24/13/9blk, and so on. There also seems to be a more common misconception Tony Parker was the best on the Spurs since he won Finals MVP. This is completely false and you would get laughed at if you said this in 2007.


    You could argue Kobe Bryant is more individually talented and I would agree. But if your goal is to win the NBA championship, the qualities Duncan provides you the greatest chance to win it. In 2007, everyone knew this. Now I don't know why everyone has forgotten.
    While Tim was still pretty much the ideal franchise player as the great two-way player with few weaknesses(only free throw shooting, and probably not being able to play as many minutes as some stars were the 2). He did win a title, but unlike Kobe, he had the team to do so.

    I see no reason why Kobe couldn't have won a title that year if he had a good team. The Lakers were overachieving early in the season with Kobe's more unselfish approach, which was an approach I see him going to and I see working if he had a championship-caliber team around him.

    The Lakers were 26-15 at the halfway point, and keep in mind that injuries had already affected them, here is their core up to that point. Kobe was averaging 28/5/6 on 47% shooting while not even attempting 20 shots(19.7 FGA) and Odom had only played in about half of these games.

    Kobe was approaching a game in a way that allowed his teammates to maximize their potential. Lamar Odom for example was playing the best ball of his career, and seemed to be on his way to the all-star team before his injury. The Lakers were 14-6 before Odom's injury and here were his numbers and Kobe's numbers.

    Kobe- 26.4 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.4 apg, 3.4 TO, 1.5 spg, 49.5 FG%, 60.8 TS%, 37.7 mpg, 17 games (only 18.1 FGA)
    Odom- 18.4 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 5.1 apg, 3.9 TO, 47.7 FG%, 58.6 TS%, 39.6 mpg, 20 games

    But Odom didn't keep up this level of play when he returned from his injury, his shoulder bothered him the rest of the season, and 3 of his top 4 teammates missed at least 20 games. Odom missed 26, Walton missed 22 and Kwame Brown missed exactly half of the season. And the other of his top 4 teammates was Smush Parker. It's amazing to have that cast, have almost all of them miss a lot of games and still finish over .500.

    Duncan on the otherhand had 2 all-star caliber guards in Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker who made my top 25 in addition to arguably the league's top perimeter defender Bruce Bowen who also hit those corner 3s, and 2 other solid offensive players and shooters in Michael Finley and Brent Barry. The Spurs were 3rd in 3P% at 38.1% and Duncan had multiple scoring options surrounding him.

    He shouldn't be penalized for this because he did what you're supposed to with a great team, which is win, and he did something that many greats never do. But while I think it's a valid part of the argument for Duncan, I don't think it's an indictment against Kobe because he simply didn't have the opportunity that season.

    Not only did Kobe show he could make his teammates player and play efficient, unselfish basketball, which is why I'm confident that '07 Kobe could have won a title with the right cast, but he showed individual ability that few in the history the game have shown late in the season.

    Phil Jackson gave Kobe the green light to snap a 7 game losing streak and he responds with four straight 50+ games including games of 65 and 60 points. From that point on, he averaged 40.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg and 4.4 apg over his final 17 games. Overall, he had seven 50+ games in those final 17 games, and ten 50+ games overall.

    I see a valid argument for both players, but I'm sticking with Kobe because I think he was the more dominant player by that point, more capable of carrying a team, especially since he could go out there and average 41 mpg. Changing approaches like he did depending on what the coach asked was amazing, and I do believe that he won about as much as he could with that team considering the circumstances.

    I think Kobe was a bit better in '07 than he was in '09 when he won a title, and clearly better than '10 when he won another title, so I don't consider this to be a case of comparing a championship player to a guy who isn't capable of leading a team there.

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    Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

    Great List...

    2 things..

    2003 Kobe was the best player in the NBA...saying TMAC was better?..really?...TMAC had a better overall season?..no way.

    serious that's crazy....No one on the west side of Florida thought TMAC was better then Kobe in 03'...arguably Kobe's best overall season ...he was the best overall player in the league.


    01' Kobe was also had a better season then Duncan...if you said "TMAC was better then Kobe because of consistency and postseason play"...then how could Kobe (who absolutley destroyed Duncan in the postseason) not be better....Kobe's 01' Post season Run was one of the greatest runs of the decade ...and he was easily LA's best overall player...with Shaq himself (as with Phil) saying Kobe was the best player.





    yeah I said it....

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    Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

    Shaqattack just wondering but had Webber stood up to the plate in game 7 (perhaps the whole series) against the Lakers in 2002, where would he have been placed in your 2002 best players list?

    Great lists by the way! I'd have T-Mac over Kobe in 2003 and 2000 but Kobe over T-Mac in every other year.

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    Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaWolf24
    Great List...


    2003 Kobe was the best player in the NBA...saying TMAC was better?..really?...TMAC had a better overall season?..no way.

    serious that's crazy....No one on the west side of Florida thought TMAC was better then Kobe in 03'...arguably Kobe's best overall season ...he was the best overall player in the league.
    '03 was a very tough year to rank except Duncan was the obvious choice for best player, imo. Throughout the season, people were split on the best players with many arguing for all of the top 5, but Duncan's all-time great playoff run after his well deserved MVP and his defensive impact make it tough for me to argue for anyone over him.

    2-5 can be put in any order, imo. Kobe was looking like the best player during those midseason streaks when Phil gave him more freedom and stopped running the offense through Shaq as the 1st option for the time being.

    But I explained my choice for T-Mac. As far as individual ability and skills, they're virtually identical so I went with him for the more consistent season, better numbers, his team overachieving more and T-Mac having the less disappointing playoffs.

    T-Mac's only teammates in his rotation for the entire year were Pat Garrity, 34 year old Darrell Armstrong, Jacque Vaughn, 310 pound Shawn Kemp and Andrew DeClercq. Pretty amazing to get that team to a winning record.

    01' Kobe was also had a better season then Duncan...if you said "TMAC was better then Kobe because of consistency and postseason play"...then how could Kobe (who absolutley destroyed Duncan in the postseason) not be better....Kobe's 01' Post season Run was one of the greatest runs of the decade
    This comparison doesn't work because Kobe definitely wasn't more consistent than Duncan. Kobe was the second best player in the postseason, but the reason I went with Duncan was because of the problems with Kobe's regular season and because if I'm building a championship team from scratch for that one year, I'm picking Duncan to build around for that season.

    Kobe did have a tremendous playoff run which made it tempting to pick him. He played magnificent all around basketball. Even though he was more skilled later, as far as playmaking, defense and rebounding, it was the second best I've seen him play from an all around standpoint other than '08.

    I thought it would be cool to rank 2 players from a team as the top 2 in the league, particularly because of the 15-1 playoff record, but my gut made me go with Duncan.

    I have absolutely no problem with anyone putting Kobe 2nd, though.

    ...and he was easily LA's best overall player...with Shaq himself (as with Phil) saying Kobe was the best player.
    Shaq was widely regarded as the best player in the game during the 3peat, he was winning the gM surveys for best player as late as March '03. There's no question about that.

    Shaq did in fact call Kobe the best player in the game, but he also says that by best, he just meant more skilled, and claimed he was the most dominant. It was before game 2 of the '01 WCF.

    Phil never called Kobe the best, though. He did call Shaq the most dominant player in the game, though and said Shaq's MVP votes were a slap in the face.

    However, Kobe was regularly called the second best player in the game in '01 and '02, people use to often say LA had the 2 best players as well. Kobe did even finish above Duncan in those GM surveys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukem
    Shaqattack just wondering but had Webber stood up to the plate in game 7 (perhaps the whole series) against the Lakers in 2002, where would he have been placed in your 2002 best players list?
    I'd have to say he'd have a shot at top 3-4. I was tempted to put him higher anyway for being the star player on a team that was probably a shot away from a championship, and for how great the Kings offense was running through Webber.

    But at the same time, I have to remember they were a stacked team. 7 players in double figures in that era is amazing. Aside from Webber, there was another 20+ ppg scorer in Peja who was the best pure shooter at the time not named Ray Allen and he fit well in the offense since he moved well without the ball, and was also pretty good in the mid-post area. Mike Bibby also proved to be one of the best scoring point guards and another shooter when he stepped up and averaged 20+ in the playoffs while hitting huge shots, and while he had the skills to play point guard, he was good without the ball which made him the ideal fit with the offense running through Webber and Vlade. Doug Christie was a very well rounded 2 guard known for his defense, but he could handle the ball, was a good passer and a solid shooter. Vlade was one of the most skilled centers, who may have been one of the 2 best passing big men along with Webber, he had a good post game, but could hit mid-range shots, was a solid rebounder, and despite the flopping, he was a pesky defender who could make an impact at that end drawing charges, stripping the post and knocking away entry passes with his good hands and blocking some shots. Bobby Jackson was an excellent scoring point guard and a good shooter, and one of four Kings capable of averaging 20 ppg. He averaged 11 ppg in just 22 mpg, but he got a chance to start 26 games the following season and averaged 20/5/4 on 50% shooting as a starter. Hedo was also a double digit scorer in 24 mpg off the bench and a versatile 6'9" small forward who could handle the ball, pass, create off the dribble and shoot. He averaged 17/7/3 in his 10 starts that year. Scott Pollard was also a solid backup big man and physical role player who rebounded well.

    They also had one of the all-time great coaches in Rick Adleman. Aside from mental toughness, they didn't have a weakness. That's just an incredible collection of talent. One of the teams that can accurately be described as stacked. The only other early 00's team that arguably had that much talent was the 2000 Blazers.

    So while winning a title would have helped Webber's ranking, it wouldn't have gotten him over Shaq and Duncan. Who I also think were clearly better players regardless of accomplishments.

    Great lists by the way! I'd have T-Mac over Kobe in 2003 and 2000 but Kobe over T-Mac in every other year.
    Thanks, but 2000? T-Mac was still in Toronto then, and while he was showing a lot of potential that season, he wasn't a legitimate all-star player bordering on superstar level like Kobe was at that time.
    Last edited by ShaqAttack3234; 07-17-2012 at 05:28 PM.

  14. #74
    NBA Legend pauk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
    2000
    1.Shaquille O'Neal
    2.Tim Duncan
    3.Kevin Garnett
    4.Alonzo Mourning
    5.Karl Malone
    6.Chris Webber
    7.Grant Hill
    8.Gary Payton
    9.Jason Kidd
    10.Kobe Bryant
    11.Vince Carter
    12.Allen Iverson
    13.David Robinson
    14.Eddie Jones
    15.Stephon Marbury
    16.Ray Allen
    17.Michael Finley
    18.Rasheed Wallace
    19.Penny Hardaway
    20.Scottie Pippen
    21.Reggie Miller
    22.Latrell Sorewell
    23.Terrell Brandon
    24.Sam Cassell
    25.Dikembe Mutombo

    2001
    1.Shaquille O'Neal
    2.Tim Duncan
    3.Kobe Bryant
    4.Kevin Garnett
    5.Allen Iverson
    6.Vince Carter
    7.Chris Webber
    8.Tracy McGrady
    9.Jason Kidd
    10.Gary Payton
    11.Karl Malone
    12.Ray Allen
    13.Paul Pierce
    14.Dirk Nowitzki
    15.Stephon Marbury
    16.Steve Francis
    17.Rasheed Wallace
    18.Antonio McDyess
    19.David Robinson
    20.Jamal Mashburn
    21.Michael Finley
    22.Dikembe Mutombo
    23.Glenn Robinson
    24.Peja Stojakovic
    25.Jerry Stackhouse

    2002
    1.Shaquille O'Neal
    2.Tim Duncan
    3.Kobe Bryant
    4.Kevin Garnett
    5.Tracy McGrady
    6.Chris Webber
    7.Jason Kidd
    8.Paul Pierce
    9.Dirk Nowitzki
    10.Allen Iverson
    11.Gary Payton
    12.Jermaine O'Neal
    13.Steve Nash
    14.Vince Carter
    15.Ray Allen
    16.Rasheed Wallace
    17.Ben Wallace
    18.Elton Brand
    19.Karl Malone
    20.Baron Davis
    21.Stephon Marbury
    22.Peja Stojakovic
    23.Michael Jordan
    24.Shawn Marion
    25.Sam Cassell

    2003
    1.Tim Duncan
    2.Kevin Garnett
    3.Shaquille O'Neal
    4.Tracy McGrady
    5.Kobe Bryant
    6.Jason Kidd
    7.Dirk Nowitzki
    8.Allen Iverson
    9.Chris Webber
    10.Paul Pierce
    11.Jermaine O'Neal
    12.Ray Allen
    13.Ben Wallace
    14.Steve Nash
    15.Stephon Marbury
    16.Steve Francis
    17.Gary Payton
    18.Peja Stojakovic
    19.Jamal Mashburn
    20.Shawn Marion
    21.Rasheed Wallace
    22.Allan Houston
    23.Karl Malone
    24.Michael Jordan
    25.Sam Cassell

    2004
    1.Kevin Garnett
    2.Tim Duncan
    3.Shaquille O'Neal
    4.Kobe Bryant
    5.Tracy McGrady
    6.Jermaine O'Neal
    7.Jason Kidd
    8.Dirk Nowitzki
    9.Ben Wallace
    10.Peja Stojakovic
    11.Sam Cassell
    12.Baron Davis
    13.Paul Pierce
    14.Vince Carter
    15.Andrei Kirilenko
    16.Ron Artest
    17.Elton Brand
    18.Ray Allen
    19.Steve Nash
    20.Yao Ming
    21.Pau Gasol
    22.Lebron James
    23.Stephon Marbury
    24.Rasheed Wallace
    25.Lamar Odom

    2005
    1.Kobe Bryant
    2.Lebron James
    3.Tim Duncan
    4. Kevin Garnett
    5.Shaquille O'Neal
    6.Steve Nash
    7.Tracy McGrady
    8.Dirk Nowitzki
    9.Dwyane Wade
    10.Allen Iverson
    11.Vince Carter
    12.Amare Stoudemire
    13.Ray Allen
    14.Paul Pierce
    15.Manu Ginobili
    16.Elton Brand
    17.Gilbert Arenas
    18.Ben Wallace
    19.Shawn Marion
    20.Jason Kidd
    21.Yao Ming
    22.Chauncey Billups
    23.Stephon Marbury
    24.Grant Hill
    25.Carmelo Anthony

    2006
    1.Dwyane Wade
    2.Lebron James
    3.Kobe Bryant
    4.Dirk Nowitzki
    5.Tim Duncan
    6.Kevin Garnett
    7.Steve Nash
    8.Allen Iverson
    9.Elton Brand
    10.Shaquille O'Neal
    11.Paul Pierce
    12.Gilbert Arenas
    13.Chauncey Billups
    14.Vince Carter
    15.Carmelo Anthony
    16.Ray Allen
    17.Shawn Marion
    18.Pau Gasol
    19.Yao Ming
    20.Andrei Kirilenko
    21.Jason Kidd
    22.Manu Ginobili
    23.Tony Parker
    24.Michael Redd
    25.Ben Wallace

    2007
    1.Lebron James
    2.Kobe Bryant
    3.Dwyane Wade
    4.Steve Nash
    5.Dirk Nowitzki
    6.Tim Duncan
    7.Kevin Garnett
    8.Yao Ming
    9.Carmelo Anthony
    10.Tracy McGrady
    11.Vince Carter
    12.Gilbert Arenas
    13.Amare Stoudemire
    14.Baron Davis
    15.Elton Brand
    16.Chris Bosh
    17.Jason Kidd
    18.Carlos Boozer
    19.Allen Iverson
    20.Ray Allen
    21.Deron Williams
    22.Chris Paul
    23.Chauncey Billups
    24.Manu Ginobili
    25.Tony Parker

    2008
    1.Lebron James
    2.Kobe Bryant
    3.Chris Paul
    4.Kevin Garnett
    5.Dwight Howard
    6.Dirk Nowitzki
    7.Steve Nash
    8.Amare Stoudemire
    9.Deron Williams
    10.Tim Duncan
    11.Paul Pierce
    12.Yao Ming
    13.Manu Ginobili
    14.Allen Iverson
    15.Carmelo Anthony
    16.Tracy McGrady
    17.Pau Gasol
    18.Chris Bosh
    19.Baron Davis
    20.Chauncey Billups
    21.Carlos Boozer
    22.Joe Johnson
    23.Tony Parker
    24.Vince Carter
    25.Ray Allen

    2009
    1.Lebron James
    2.Dwyane Wade
    3.Kobe Bryant
    4.Chris Paul
    5.Dwight Howard
    6.Dirk Nowitzki
    7.Yao Ming
    8.Brandon Roy
    9.Deron Williams
    10.Pau Gasol
    11.Carmelo Anthony
    12.Tim Duncan
    13.Paul Pierce
    14.Chauncey Billups
    15.Tony Parker
    16.Steve Nash
    17.Kevin Garnett
    18.Chris Bosh
    19.Andre Igoudala
    20.Danny Granger
    21.Kevin Durant
    22.Vince Carter
    23.Ray Allen
    24.Joe Johnson
    25.Shaquille O'Neal
    Fixed!

    Figured out two things with your rankings:

    1. You overrated Tim Duncan to HELL...
    2. You underrated http://www.basketball-reference.com/...er_top_10.html that guy to HELL....
    Last edited by pauk; 07-17-2012 at 05:47 PM.

  15. #75
    Objectivity Gifted Mind's Avatar
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    Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
    Duncan over Kobe did appear to be the consensus on this board back then, but among players/coaches/media, I remember Kobe being considered the best player from '06-'10(though most on message boards were choose Lebron by '09 and '10). At the time, I thought Kobe was clearly the best from '06-'08, and it wasn't until after I reflected on the '09 season that I thought Lebron had surpassed him.
    I always considered Kobe overrated by the general media. Him being picked in 09 and 10 over LeBron supports that assertion. In fact, I would say the message has been more accurate than the media in these selections. But what I find strange is in 2007 everyone was picking Duncan, and now everyone is picking Kobe.




    Duncan on the otherhand had 2 all-star caliber guards in Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker who made my top 25 in addition to arguably the league's top perimeter defender Bruce Bowen who also hit those corner 3s, and 2 other solid offensive players and shooters in Michael Finley and Brent Barry. The Spurs were 3rd in 3P% at 38.1% and Duncan had multiple scoring options surrounding him.

    He shouldn't be penalized for this because he did what you're supposed to with a great team, which is win, and he did something that many greats never do. But while I think it's a valid part of the argument for Duncan, I don't think it's an indictment against Kobe because he simply didn't have the opportunity that season.

    Not only did Kobe show he could make his teammates player and play efficient, unselfish basketball, which is why I'm confident that '07 Kobe could have won a title with the right cast, but he showed individual ability that few in the history the game have shown late in the season.

    Phil Jackson gave Kobe the green light to snap a 7 game losing streak and he responds with four straight 50+ games including games of 65 and 60 points. From that point on, he averaged 40.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg and 4.4 apg over his final 17 games. Overall, he had seven 50+ games in those final 17 games, and ten 50+ games overall.

    I see a valid argument for both players, but I'm sticking with Kobe because I think he was the more dominant player by that point, more capable of carrying a team, especially since he could go out there and average 41 mpg. Changing approaches like he did depending on what the coach asked was amazing, and I do believe that he won about as much as he could with that team considering the circumstances.

    I think Kobe was a bit better in '07 than he was in '09 when he won a title, and clearly better than '10 when he won another title, so I don't consider this to be a case of comparing a championship player to a guy who isn't capable of leading a team there.
    I agree with pretty much everything you said. Kobe was phenomenal in 2007, and both Kobe and Duncan were capable of leading their teams to the championship. And it is extremely close in deciding which one of them was a better player. But if my goal was to win, the qualities Duncan brings is easier to build around and more important to win. He was the best defensive player in the NBA in 2007 while highly efficient on offense shooting 55% with 20ppg and grabbing over 10 rebounds. Do you honestly believe what Kobe brings is more valuable than Duncan for winning a championship? That is the question. I mean think about that, good and highly efficient low-post scoring, strong rebounding, and the best defense in the league. What is more important than this when it comes to winning? Even I need to think it over.
    Last edited by Gifted Mind; 07-17-2012 at 06:48 PM.

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