Name a legit good player Dirk has ever played with in Dallas.

[GiveItToBurrito]

now and career wise. kidd to me is overrated, but that is more based on where a lot of nba fans put him, not that i think he isn't a great or anything. the difference nash makes in a game, far outweighs the passes and offensive boarding that occasioanlly happens from kidd. kidd's distributing is imo one of the most overrated things about him, mostly because he's known for it, and fans tend to put it on lvls that are so much above someone like nash, when its not.

llike i said in another thread, each one of manu's passes is way more profound than most of kidd's. but kidd will be remembered as the greatest passer ever next to Magic, which is just not true imo.

I hate to say it, but I agree here. Kidd's a great passer, but I think that his inability to score counterbalanced this a bit. To me, he's been the ultimate role player - a great passer and rebounder who was probably the best perimeter defender in the league for a good decade, while Nash instantly makes any team he's on somewhere between great and historically great on offense.

[WhySoInsecure?]

now and career wise. kidd to me is overrated, but that is more based on where a lot of nba fans put him, not that i think he isn't a great or anything. the difference nash makes in a game, far outweighs the passes and offensive boarding that occasioanlly happens from kidd. kidd's distributing is imo one of the most overrated things about him, mostly because he's known for it, and fans tend to put it on lvls that are so much above someone like nash, when its not.

llike i said in another thread, each one of manu's passes is way more profound than most of kidd's. but kidd will be remembered as the greatest passer ever next to Magic, which is just not true imo.

Kidd is to Nash what Duncan is to Dirk. Nash puts up numbers but there hasn't been a player in this league he could guard. Dirk get his buckets but is not a post presence and is worthless on defense.

[GiveItToBurrito]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! I thought this was a bumped thread from like 8 years ago, I CANNOT believe someone's actually making up this excuse that he's had no talent around him. What a sore loser.

Dirk has had WAY better talent around him throughout his career than KG has.

KG's talented/best teammates:
Pierce
Ray Allen
Sam Cassell (for 1 year)
Latrell Sprewell (for 1.5 years)
Tom Gugliotta (and he's pushing it on the "best" area)
Stephon Marbury (for a couple years)

All stars that Dirk has played with:
Nash
PRIME Finley
Jamison
Butler
Josh Howard
Marion
Jason Kidd
other good players Dirk's played with:
Nick Van Exel
Prime Raef Lafrentz
Antoine Walker
Devin Harris
Jason Terry
and there's more...

This thread is so full of fail. Dirk has had PLENTY of talent around him to succeed. Don't be one of "those" fans dude. Seriously.

It's also not like Dirk hasn't accomplished anything. He had a couple of deep playoff runs, made the Finals, won 67 games one year. It just sucks for him (and Phoenix and to a lesser extent Sacramento) that he had to play at the same time as some Laker and Spur dynasties. Also, the difference between him and KG accomplishments wise is one ring as opposed to one Finals appearance. It's not like Dirk has consistently been on underachieving teams (for the record, I don't think Dallas underachieved this year, at least not any less than Utah or Portland did last year).

[dawsey6]

I hear all this noise about how Dirks teams have been so deep over the years, but have they really?

PROVE IT. Name a single good player Dirk has played with during his career in Dallas. Don't say Nash because we all know Nash wasn't good in Dallas and didn't actually start trying until he got his own team.

For all the crap people talk about Dirk going out in the first round as a high seed a few times, they fail to realize Dirk has never had any help. His best player was pretty much Josh Howard WHO WAS A SECOND ROUND PICK and an overall awful person and teammate.

Get Dirk a Manu and Parker. Get Dirk a Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. Get Dirk a Gasol and Odom. Everyone talks about how great LeBron is but fail to realize he hasn't won anything, but he'll probably win a ring this year. Why? Because they brought Jamison over and he finally got some help!

Nobody can do it by themselves. The funny thing is, DIRK ALMOST DID yet all he does is get crapped on.

Next time you want to bash Dirk, ask yourself, 'who has he really played with?' and I bet you'll change your mind and start to appreciate him.

Nash was an all-star on the Mavs and from 2001-2004 averaged 16/3/7 on 49%/41%/90%, 18/3/8 on 48%/46%/89%, 18/3/7 on 47%/41%/91%, and 15/3/9 on 47%/41%/92%, respectively. Need I remind you that Nash and Dirk became legit stars in the same year (00-01) and that was their first 50-win season.

But, no, he wasn't a good player . Not even trying .

[NY-Knicks]

now and career wise. kidd to me is overrated, but that is more based on where a lot of nba fans put him, not that i think he isn't a great or anything. the difference nash makes in a game, far outweighs the passes and offensive boarding that occasioanlly happens from kidd. kidd's distributing is imo one of the most overrated things about him, mostly because he's known for it, and fans tend to put it on lvls that are so much above someone like nash, when its not.

llike i said in another thread, each one of manu's passes is way more profound than most of kidd's. but kidd will be remembered as the greatest passer ever next to Magic, which is just not true imo.

have you ever seen Kidd play before he went to Dallas?
it's the way he transforms teams and makes people around him better. Nash does the same thing but is a terrible defender, Kidd in his younger days was a very capable defender and a great rebounder. Not to mention the fact that Nash was a very late bloomer. By that time Kidd had already created himself a legacy.

[NY-Knicks]

Kidd is to Nash what Duncan is to Dirk. Nash puts up numbers but there hasn't been a player in this league he could guard. Dirk get his buckets but is not a post presence and is worthless on defense.

so true.

[Nanners]

lol what a dumb thread. maybe dirk never had a superstar, but he is a damn league MVP, he is supposed to be the superstar.

[NY-Knicks]

I hate to say it, but I agree here. Kidd's a great passer, but I think that his inability to score counterbalanced this a bit. To me, he's been the ultimate role player - a great passer and rebounder who was probably the best perimeter defender in the league for a good decade, while Nash instantly makes any team he's on somewhere between great and historically great on offense.

the ultimate role player

[MK2V1GP]

It's also not like Dirk hasn't accomplished anything. He had a couple of deep playoff runs, made the Finals, won 67 games one year. It just sucks for him (and Phoenix and to a lesser extent Sacramento) that he had to play at the same time as some Laker and Spur dynasties. Also, the difference between him and KG accomplishments wise is one ring as opposed to one Finals appearance. It's not like Dirk has consistently been on underachieving teams (for the record, I don't think Dallas underachieved this year, at least not any less than Utah or Portland did last year).

Exactly my point. And KG has accomplished more than Dirk, with less talent around him consistently, but that wasn't really my point.

BUT, I wouldnt consider one Finals run where they lost 4 straight games "success" then you must consider the fact that in a span of 3 seasons, they managed to become the only franchise in history to lose to a 8 seed and 7 seed in the 1st round. That's awful.

And I don't even hate Dirk, but I just think this topic is ridiculous. Dirk not having talent around him is an outrageous thing to say.

[dawsey6]

This is my point. None of these guys are good and I feel bad for anyone who thinks they are. lol@all star guard Michael Finley.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/michae...eer_stats.html

Played two all-star games. 2000 and 2001. After that, 22/5/4, 21/5/3, 19/6/3, 19/5/3, and 16/4/3.

But no, he also was terrible player .

[Showtime]

God I'm so sick of this argument. No, Dirk has never played with a top 5 player like a Lebron or Kobe. But what Dirk has had is a lot of solid players top to bottom, with several all star players.

For example, would anybody call Nick Van Exel a great player? No. But he was good enough to average 25 PPG in a playoff series including games of 36, 40, and 35 points to SAVE DIRK'S ASS in 2003, and that was alongside Nash doing his thing as well.

And I guess Antwan is good enough for Lebron, but he's not good enough for Dirk.

And players like Finley were exactly what people are calling for now: an allstar swingman who could score on his own. And Dirk had that.

Howard is a scrub now, but in his prime he was a very solid defensive player, and although he was a black hole offensively, he had his moments and most people called him an underrated SF.

And players like Najera are needed on any team. Every good team has that hustle banger who can come in, play defense, give a few fouls and make plays. And Najera did that by often playing good defense on guys like Chris Webber and Duncan.

And then there's Nash.

Don't tell me Dirk has never had good TEAMS, because although he's never had a Lebron James, he's had solid teams with solid players who were good enough to compete with any team in the league, and that's why he's had so much regular season success. You don't win 67 games by yourself.

[AK47DR91]

Nash was really good in Dallas during his last three seasons as a Mavs. Not as great as he is as a Suns but still good enough to be considered the #2 guy.

Only problem is the Spurs(Duncan & crew) and Lakers(Shaq, Kobe and crew) were 5 times better than them during that stint.

[NY-Knicks]

Exactly my point. And KG has accomplished more than Dirk, with less talent around him consistently, but that wasn't really my point.

BUT, I wouldnt consider one Finals run where they lost 4 straight games "success" then you must consider the fact that in a span of 3 seasons, they managed to become the only franchise in history to lose to a 8 seed and 7 seed in the 1st round. That's awful.

And I don't even hate Dirk, but I just think this topic is ridiculous. Dirk not having talent around him is an outrageous thing to say.

KG really changed the identity of that Celtics team. It was all about defense, which is also the reason why Duncan won so many championships, and the Pistons in '04, not to mention that those Lakers teams we not bad defensively at all.

Defense wins championships = reason why Nash and Dirk haven't won it all. They are very talented offensively but neither is good defensively, of course it is all about team defense and their GM's haven't created decent defensive teams to surround them.

[NY-Knicks]

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/michae...eer_stats.html

Played two all-star games. 2000 and 2001. After that, 22/5/4, 21/5/3, 19/6/3, 19/5/3, and 16/4/3.

But no, he also was terrible player .

he was great back then.

[Wukillabeez78]

Dirk has played with many good players throughout his career. His teammates over the years have always included guys who were all-stars themselves. Dirk's played on teams that were good enough to win or should have won (like vs the Heat in 2006).

[COLOR="Red"]The problem is people who still think Dirk himself is something more than good player. Dirk isn't a great player. Dirk is only a good player himself. Skillwise Dirk is certainly a great player. But skills aren't the only thing that makes a player great. To be great a player must have the skills but they must also have the mindset. [/COLOR] Dirk doesn't possess this. Dirk doesn't have the same mindset other great players had that were great. Dirk isn't a vocal leader and he doesn't have the same intensity (win at all costs) type of presence that is required to win. Like I said on another thread, Dirk gets hit or bullied by someone like Matt Bonner and then looks for the ref for help. Jordan's mindset was if you hit me or try to punk anyone on my team I'll take care of it myself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0CKXDxFQJw
Jordan punched Will Perdue in practice because Perdue was setting better picks in practice than he did in the games. Isiah Thomas was the same way. Larry Bird as well. Larry was confident, cocky, would talk shit and rip your heart out. These guys made their teammates better because they were great leaders and were willing to sacrifice their individual brilliance a bit to win. You can't compare Dirk to any of these truly great players because like I said, he doesn't have the same mindset they did. [COLOR="Red"]Dirk is a good player who needs to be paired with a great one to finally win. Dirk will never win a championship as the best player on his team.[/COLOR] Dirk is Pau Gasol before he joined forces with a great player (Kobe). Dirk is David Robinson before San Antonio lucked out and he got paired with a great player (Duncan). Dirk, Gasol and Robinson are or were very good players and could have been great had they had that mindset the great ones possess.