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Old 08-19-2013, 09:12 PM   #151
TheMarkMadsen
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Default Re: How do Kobe stans cope with the fact that

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Wait...let me get this straight. Because I would take Dirk...I'm too far on one side to be sensible?

How does that make sense?

You would obviously take Kobe...are you too far on one side to be sensible?

Please people...come with evidence. Backup your claims...do something at least.

All you people do is attack other posters when they make a point you can't refute.


If you want to win you're picking Kobe. In a big man centered league Dirks only made the finals twice, one he chocked away, the other was basically gift wrapped from Lebron.

Kobe has led 3 teams to the finals as the undisputed best player on the team, twice he's won and taken home FMVP.

Kobe's 01, 02, 08, 09, 10 playoff runs are all better or equal to any of Dirks playoff runs.

With Kobe you're guaranteed consistent playoff performances, Dirks teams are famous for underperforming in the playoffs, even losing once as the 1st seed in the FIRST round something that's never happened to Kobe.

Dirk wasn't able to get over the hump with Michael Finley & Nash, which is the perimeter equivalent of having Pau down low. Steve Nash led teams have gone far in the playoffs too.

Dirks defense has always been a liability. A big man that plays no D? No thanks. Not to mention Dirks 46% FG% in the playoffs is pretty low for an elite bigman.

Dirks teams have never been considered serious title contenders, and after losing Tyson Chandler the MAvs have been an after thought.

Kobe's a proven winner, 7 finals appearances 5 titles, Dirk is a regular season hero who's team are never expected to do much, especially after that embarrassment in 07.

And it's not like Dirk hasn't had help, he's played with DPOY, multiple MVPS, Jason terry, Michael Finley, Antoine Walker, Antwan Jamison, Josh Howard when he was an 18ppg scorer, Devin Harris, Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion and others.

Dirks playoff failures don't get magnified like others (Lebron, Kobe) because he's simply not at the level and never has been.

You're taking Kobe if you want to be in the playoffs every year & contend for championships.

Oh yeah, not to mention with Kobe you're guaranteed 15 years of 25 5 5

Last edited by TheMarkMadsen : 08-19-2013 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 08-19-2013, 09:14 PM   #152
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Default Re: How do Kobe stans cope with the fact that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trollsmasher
Let's just look at Kobe's and Dirk's defensive RAPM over the years:

-----------Kobe--------Dirk--------
98-99.......-0,9............-0,8...........
99-00.......-0,2............-0,1...........
00-01.......-0,2.............2,6............
01-02.......-0,7.............1,9............
02-03.......-0,2.............3,1............
03-04.......-0,4.............2,5............
04-05.......-0,7.............3,3............
05-06.......-1,2.............1,8............
06-07.......-0,4.............1,0............
07-08........0,8..............1,3...........
08-09........0,2..............0,7...........
09-10........0,4..............1,3...........
10-11.......-1,3.............2,2............
11-12.......-1,2.............1,8............
12-13.......-1,2.............1,3............



Not once is Kobe better
link?source?
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Old 08-19-2013, 09:27 PM   #153
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Default Re: How do Kobe stans cope with the fact that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacks3
link?source?

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

Guy was hired by a team so I don't know if he'll continue his ratings going forward.
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Old 08-19-2013, 09:32 PM   #154
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Default Re: How do Kobe stans cope with the fact that

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpliii
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

Guy was hired by a team so I don't know if he'll continue his ratings going forward.
Of course it isn't precise, because RAPM for bigs is on average higher than RAPM for guards, but it gives you an idea. Both are just average.
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Old 08-19-2013, 09:37 PM   #155
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Default Re: How do Kobe stans cope with the fact that

They will cope with it by using the very thing that built up the myth of Kobe: delusion.
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:20 PM   #156
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Default Re: How do Kobe stans cope with the fact that

LeBron will be better than Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird, Kareem etc. Take that, Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird, Kareem, Bill Russell, Wilt fans. It's time to deal wit it! There is a new King of the NBA!
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:23 PM   #157
Jacks3
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Default Re: How do Kobe stans cope with the fact that

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpliii
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

Guy was hired by a team so I don't know if he'll continue his ratings going forward.
isn't that XRAPM? do you have the non-boxscore numbers?
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Old 08-20-2013, 03:35 PM   #158
TheMarkMadsen
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Default Re: How do Kobe stans cope with the fact that

DMAVS abondans threads after getting exactly what he begged for..evidence.

Refute my points, tell me why you take Dirk over Kobe if starting a team

Last edited by TheMarkMadsen : 08-20-2013 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 08-20-2013, 03:53 PM   #159
Vienceslav
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Default Re: How do Kobe stans cope with the fact that

Alcohol.
But seriously if you need to 'cope' with something like this, you either never had a real problem in your life or you need to rethink your priorities.
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Old 08-20-2013, 03:55 PM   #160
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Default Re: How do Kobe stans cope with the fact that

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Funk
ring chasing like a mofo, imagine if jordan did this sooner? or magic or bird... Ring chasing is for scary bitches

So butthurt
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Old 08-20-2013, 03:58 PM   #161
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Default Re: How do Kobe stans cope with the fact that

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashDwyaneWade3
LeBron will be better than Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird, Kareem etc. Take that, Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird, Kareem, Bill Russell, Wilt fans. It's time to deal wit it! There is a new King of the NBA!
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:01 PM   #162
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Default Re: How do Kobe stans cope with the fact that

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Originally Posted by Fudge

He chipping away one player at a time
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:03 PM   #163
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Default Re: How do Kobe stans cope with the fact that

Quote:
Originally Posted by andgar923
He'll never be better than MJ and that Bron will surpass him as the better player all time (if he hasn't already)?
Oh i'm sure we'll get by somehow. Laker fans will just have to be happy with the countless hours of unimaginable moments, championships and memories he brought us.

Last edited by gts : 08-20-2013 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:41 PM   #164
DMAVS41
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Default Re: How do Kobe stans cope with the fact that

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMarkMadsen
If you want to win you're picking Kobe. In a big man centered league Dirks only made the finals twice, one he chocked away, the other was basically gift wrapped from Lebron.

Kobe has led 3 teams to the finals as the undisputed best player on the team, twice he's won and taken home FMVP.

Kobe's 01, 02, 08, 09, 10 playoff runs are all better or equal to any of Dirks playoff runs.

With Kobe you're guaranteed consistent playoff performances, Dirks teams are famous for underperforming in the playoffs, even losing once as the 1st seed in the FIRST round something that's never happened to Kobe.

Dirk wasn't able to get over the hump with Michael Finley & Nash, which is the perimeter equivalent of having Pau down low. Steve Nash led teams have gone far in the playoffs too.

Dirks defense has always been a liability. A big man that plays no D? No thanks. Not to mention Dirks 46% FG% in the playoffs is pretty low for an elite bigman.

Dirks teams have never been considered serious title contenders, and after losing Tyson Chandler the MAvs have been an after thought.

Kobe's a proven winner, 7 finals appearances 5 titles, Dirk is a regular season hero who's team are never expected to do much, especially after that embarrassment in 07.

And it's not like Dirk hasn't had help, he's played with DPOY, multiple MVPS, Jason terry, Michael Finley, Antoine Walker, Antwan Jamison, Josh Howard when he was an 18ppg scorer, Devin Harris, Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion and others.

Dirks playoff failures don't get magnified like others (Lebron, Kobe) because he's simply not at the level and never has been.

You're taking Kobe if you want to be in the playoffs every year & contend for championships.

Oh yeah, not to mention with Kobe you're guaranteed 15 years of 25 5 5

I told you why I'd take Dirk. And I literally just saw this...I'm not abandoning the thread.

And let me first say...I have no issue with you taking Kobe of course. Most would...so I'm in the minority. I do have an issue calling me too biased to have a discussion with just because I'd pick Dirk. I don't think that makes sense considering you are picking Kobe and I'm saying no such thing.

With Dirk, I like that fact that he's far more unselfish on the court. He doesn't need the ball in his hands as often and he's able to routinely impact the game just by his presence in a way very few players have. Dirk allows his teammates to flourish. He spaces the floor and is a great pick and roll player. He's never played with one, but a dominant offensive center would see a ton of space normally not seen by playing with Dirk. Basically, surround Dirk with any set of offensive players and you'll see them excel as Dirk fits with any style...evidenced by the run and gun early Mavs, the more defensive minded Avery Mavs, and now the combination Carlisle Mavs with pick and roll play and more iso.

I also like the fact that he's a better teammate than Kobe. I understand this is highly subjective, but I think we've seen enough from both to get a good idea of what kind of teammate you are getting on and off the court with Kobe and Dirk.

Dirk is one of the best big game players in NBA history...he's also one of the best playoff players ever. He's one of four NBA players in history to average over 25/10 for his career in the playoffs. Here are Kobe and Dirk's elimination game and game 7 play;

Kobe Bryant EG Averages:
22.3 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 3.7 APG, 1.2 SPG, .6 BPG, 3.0 TOPG, 41.4 FG%, 27.5 3P%, 77.9 FT%

Dirk Nowitzki Elimination Game Averages:
28.4 PPG, 10.9 RPG, 2.8 APG, 1.0 SPG, 1.2 BPG, 1.8 TPG, 48.4 FG%, 41.9 3PT%, 90.7 FT%

Kobe Bryant G7 Stats:
21.4 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 5.1 APG, .9 SPG, 1.6 BPG, 2.0 TOPG, 39.5 FG%, 32.4 3P%, 70.2 FT%

Dirk Nowitzki G7 Stats:
26.0 PPG, 12.6 RPG, 1.8 APG, 1.2 SPG, 1.6 BPG, .8 TOPG, 50.0 FG%, 42.9 3P%, 90.2 FT%

With Dirk you also have seen evidence for virtually unprecedented regular season win consistency given his high turnover of teammates and coaches. The Mavs won over 50 games 11 consecutive years...only 3 other teams have done this in NBA history. Again...evidence Dirk can succeed with many different players, coaches, and styles.

Dirk is also one of the most clutch players in NBA history....so is Kobe by the way. But I think Dirk has performed better...not only on game winning situations in the playoffs and regular season, but in crunch time as well. From the 05 season through the 11 season. The Mavs had the best record in close games over that time...and the Mavs had the 2nd best offensive efficiency over that time.

Dirk's teams have also won as an underdog more often than Kobe's teams in the playoffs. This is a bit unfair to Kobe as he's been on stacked teams throughout his career...but I've never seen Kobe lead his team over a favorite like Dirk did in 06 against the Spurs for example....or the Heat in the 11 finals...or even the Lakers in the 11 playoffs.

Dirk did get hot and play absurdly clutch in the 11 playoffs so that does skew things a little, but the point is that with normal level championship help...I think a team with Dirk has a better chance to win than a team with Kobe. Dirk scores just as much in the playoffs and is considerably more efficient.

I posted evidence that actually suggests Dirk makes a larger impact defensively. I won't even claim that, but I will claim that the impact Kobe has made defensively in his career is virtually nothing more than what Dirk has done. I agree that Kobe is the better defender, but in terms of actual impact...it's very little to nothing.

Here are their playoff resumes;

26/10/3 58.4% TS 24.7 PER
26/5/5 54.1% TS 22.4 PER

I'll take the less selfish 7 foot pf that doesn't need the ball as often...who also happens to be easily the better elimination and game 7 player...and is also a better teammate on and off the court.

Again, not claiming there to be a big gap or even a gap...I would just rather have Dirk.



I tried to be as nice as possible and will ignore comments like calling Dirk "a regular season hero"...Dirk outperforms Kobe in the playoffs...quite easily I might add by any objective measure.

I'll ask a question to end...who would you rather have in a game 7...Dirk or Kobe?

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 08-20-2013 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:48 PM   #165
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Default Re: How do Kobe stans cope with the fact that

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
I told you why I'd take Dirk. And I literally just saw this...I'm not abandoning the thread.

And let me first say...I have no issue with you taking Kobe of course. Most would...so I'm in the minority. I do have an issue calling me too biased to have a discussion with just because I'd pick Dirk. I don't think that makes sense considering you are picking Kobe and I'm saying no such thing.

With Dirk, I like that fact that he's far more unselfish on the court. He doesn't need the ball in his hands as often and he's able to routinely impact the game just by his presence in a way very few players have. Dirk allows his teammates to flourish. He spaces the floor and is a great pick and roll player. He's never played with one, but a dominant offensive center would see a ton of space normally not seen by playing with Dirk. Basically, surround Dirk with any set of offensive players and you'll see them excel as Dirk fits with any style...evidenced by the run and gun early Mavs, the more defensive minded Avery Mavs, and now the combination Carlisle Mavs with pick and roll play and more iso.

I also like the fact that he's a better teammate than Kobe. I understand this is highly subjective, but I think we've seen enough from both to get a good idea of what kind of teammate you are getting on and off the court with Kobe and Dirk.

Dirk is one of the best big game players in NBA history...he's also one of the best playoff players ever. He's one of four NBA players in history to average over 25/10 for his career in the playoffs. Here are Kobe and Dirk's elimination game and game 7 play;

Kobe Bryant EG Averages:
22.3 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 3.7 APG, 1.2 SPG, .6 BPG, 3.0 TOPG, 41.4 FG%, 27.5 3P%, 77.9 FT%

Dirk Nowitzki Elimination Game Averages:
28.4 PPG, 10.9 RPG, 2.8 APG, 1.0 SPG, 1.2 BPG, 1.8 TPG, 48.4 FG%, 41.9 3PT%, 90.7 FT%

Kobe Bryant G7 Stats:
21.4 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 5.1 APG, .9 SPG, 1.6 BPG, 2.0 TOPG, 39.5 FG%, 32.4 3P%, 70.2 FT%

Dirk Nowitzki G7 Stats:
26.0 PPG, 12.6 RPG, 1.8 APG, 1.2 SPG, 1.6 BPG, .8 TOPG, 50.0 FG%, 42.9 3P%, 90.2 FT%

With Dirk you also have seen evidence for virtually unprecedented regular season win consistency given his high turnover of teammates and coaches. The Mavs won over 50 games 11 consecutive years...only 3 other teams have done this in NBA history. Again...evidence Dirk can succeed with many different players, coaches, and styles.

Dirk is also one of the most clutch players in NBA history....so is Kobe by the way. But I think Dirk has performed better...not only on game winning situations in the playoffs and regular season, but in crunch time as well. From the 05 season through the 11 season. The Mavs had the best record in close games over that time...and the Mavs had the 2nd best offensive efficiency over that time.

Dirk's teams have also won as an underdog more often than Kobe's teams in the playoffs. This is a bit unfair to Kobe as he's been on stacked teams throughout his career...but I've never seen Kobe lead his team over a favorite like Dirk did in 06 against the Spurs for example....or the Heat in the 11 finals...or even the Lakers in the 11 playoffs.

Dirk did get hot and play absurdly clutch in the 11 playoffs so that does skew things a little, but the point is that with normal level championship help...I think a team with Dirk has a better chance to win than a team with Kobe. Dirk scores just as much in the playoffs and is considerably more efficient.

I posted evidence that actually suggests Dirk makes a larger impact defensively. I won't even claim that, but I will claim that the impact Kobe has made defensively in his career is virtually nothing more than what Dirk has done. I agree that Kobe is the better defender, but in terms of actual impact...it's very little to nothing.

Here are their playoff resumes;

26/10/3 58.4% TS 24.7 PER
26/5/5 54.1% TS 22.4 PER

I'll take the less selfish 7 foot pf that doesn't need the ball as often...who also happens to be easily the better elimination and game 7 player...and is also a better teammate on and off the court.

Again, not claiming there to be a big gap or even a gap...I would just rather have Dirk.



I tried to be as nice as possible and will ignore comments like calling Dirk "a regular season hero"...Dirk outperforms Kobe in the playoffs...quite easily I might add by any objective measure.

I'll ask a question to end...who would you rather have in a game 7...Dirk or Kobe?

Dang going in on them
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