Dear Gun Control Advocates...

[Doomsday Dallas]

When did you depend on FEMA previously?

And do you see now why Fast and Furious is not an a reason not to debate gun control?

Ask the people of New Orleans when the last time was they had to depend
on FEMA.

Don't worry... they will be reminded shortly (as well as the entire black community) of that event when Will Smith's next movie debuts.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1161401/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_5

Based on actual events, John, a New Orleans native and combat Marine, risks his life in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina for the safety and rescue of 244 people trapped in his apartment building.

And in the grand scheme of things... getting caught distributing 2,000 guns
is a drop in the bucket as what's really going on... but it's little things getting
exposed, like this, that do factor into debates such as gun control.

So, I wish you could see the point I'm trying to make.

[UK2K]

And in the grand scheme of things... getting caught distributing 2,000 guns
is a drop in the bucket as what's really going on... but it's little things getting
exposed, like this, that do factor into debates such as gun control.

So, I wish you could see the point I'm trying to make.

But they didn't just distribute 2,000 guns.

They distributed 2,000 guns right into the hands of the people who turned around and used them against our own Border Patrol.

Since the end of Operation Fast and Furious, related firearms have continued to be discovered in criminal hands. As reported in September 2011, the Mexican government stated that an undisclosed number of guns found at about 170 crime scenes were linked to Fast and Furious.[54] U.S. Representative Darrell Issa (R–Calif.–49) estimated that more than 200 Mexicans were killed by guns linked to the operation.[55] Reflecting on the operation, Attorney General Eric Holder said that the United States government is "...losing the battle to stop the flow of illegal guns to Mexico,"[56] and that the effects of Operation Fast and Furious will most likely continue to be felt for years, as more walked guns appear at Mexican crime scenes.[57]

Those 200 deaths are a direct result of our incompetent government (nothing shocking, they have a lengthy track record), which is why I am amazed to hear anyone in this country suggest more government control is a good thing.

[CP3PO]

Why would you limit how many guns a person can legally buy?

So you can limit re-selling to criminals. Most of the criminal guns in the U.S. start by being purchased legally at gun stores, then are illegally sold among to criminals. If one can only buy 10 guns or so, they can't make a career of buying guns and selling them to criminals. This then makes the black market price of guns go up, and therefore fewer criminals can afford to even obtain guns illegally.

[DeuceWallaces]

People should definitely be allowed to own guns. Like a couple, to hunt, but that's it. I'm sorry, but if it came to a military state or rising up, we don't stand a chance even if we had tanks. There's no point. Look at those dipshits out west. That was just the FBI, not even the marines or whoever.

[FillJackson]

But they didn't just distribute 2,000 guns.

They distributed 2,000 guns right into the hands of the people who turned around and used them against our own Border Patrol.

Those 200 deaths are a direct result of our incompetent government (nothing shocking, they have a lengthy track record), which is why I am amazed to hear anyone in this country suggest more government control is a good thing.

For all the screwups of the ATF and US attorney in Arizona, and there were legitimately numerous screwups, to say they were distributing guns, I think, is off the mark. It was, after-all, intended as a law-enforcement operation. Put it this way, if the ATF wasn't operating in Arizona at all those guns would still be "distributed." The distribution channel was in existence before the ATF got involved.

The distribution channel for these guns : legal gun stores or even private gun dealers knowingly or unknowingly selling to gun buyers who were "straw purchasers" and these purchasers selling them on to the real buyers which might take another few more steps before it got the real bigshots. The only thing that would have prevented these guns from being "distributed" was if the gun dealer thought the the buyer was hinky and refused to sell. In this case, the network trafficking these guns could try another deal or another straw purchaser. Which was the problem arresting the straw purchasers only gets you the little fish.

Like in a drug case, they were trying to get the bigger fish. When cops or the DEA is investigating a drug trafficking network, do we say they are drug dealers?

[Patrick Chewing]

Nobody like my new gun??

[FillJackson]

Ask the people of New Orleans when the last time was they had to depend on FEMA.

So I'm guessing never for you

[UK2K]

For all the screwups of the ATF and US attorney in Arizona, and there were legitimately numerous screwups, to say they were distributing guns, I think, is off the mark. It was, after-all, intended as a law-enforcement operation. Put it this way, if the ATF wasn't operating in Arizona at all those guns would still be "distributed." The distribution channel was in existence before the ATF got involved.

The distribution channel for these guns : legal gun stores or even private gun dealers knowingly or unknowingly selling to gun buyers who were "straw purchasers" and these purchasers selling them on to the real buyers which might take another few more steps before it got the real bigshots. The only thing that would have prevented these guns from being "distributed" was if the gun dealer thought the the buyer was hinky and refused to sell. In this case, the network trafficking these guns could try another deal or another straw purchaser. Which was the problem arresting the straw purchasers only gets you the little fish.

Like in a drug case, they were trying to get the bigger fish. When cops or the DEA is investigating a drug trafficking network, do we say they are drug dealers?

And if they had shipped a truck load of cocaine into downtown Chicago during a drug enforcement operation, and lost that truck, and that cocaine was scooped up by random people and used, would your response be the same?

Keep in mind, this cocaine is directly related to 200+ deaths. Is your opinion still 'meh'?

[bballnoob1192]

The whole point is the government (in this case, the ATF)... was
caught red handed distributing guns illegally... to very dangerous people.

And yet they want guns off the streets?

Selling guns to the bad guys... meanwhile disarming the good ones.

That's just unacceptable.

The "good" guys? please gimme some story of normal non military background people using guns to kill bad guys and saving the day. real life is not a ****ing movie. you know what the average joe does with a gun? shoot himself in the leg.

How many reports are there of idiots shooting themselves compared to someone shooting a criminal and saving people?

[UK2K]

The "good" guys? please gimme some story of normal non military background people using guns to kill bad guys and saving the day. real life is not a ****ing movie. you know what the average joe does with a gun? shoot himself in the leg.

How many reports are there of idiots shooting themselves compared to someone shooting a criminal and saving people?

http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/05/gu...ers-criminals/283 in the past year, not including people who DIDNT need to fire because simply having a gun was enough to make someone think twice.

Are you serious? Lol

Shit like that is in the news every day.

Young people used guns for self defense as well. In September of 2014, an 11-year-old Oklahoma girl awoke around 4 a.m. to find that a man had broken into her home and stabbed her mother. The girl grabbed a handgun and shot the man twice, saving her mother’s life. The mother said she had just taught the daughter how to use the gun for self defense the week before.

It's sad youd rather this girl be dead.

Gang violence and suicide make up nearly 70% of gun related incidents so that whole 'X number of gun deaths' the Obama administration is true, but not. Which is a pretty common theme during his presidency.

[Dresta]

The "good" guys? please gimme some story of normal non military background people using guns to kill bad guys and saving the day. real life is not a ****ing movie. you know what the average joe does with a gun? shoot himself in the leg.

Can you seriously be stupid enough to believe this to be true? That in a country with over 300,000,000 guns, there has been no incidences of everyday people using their gun to successfully fend off an intruder or criminal? Really? In a place with as much violent crime as America? You have to be kidding...

Or your mind has simply been ruined by propaganda.

[~primetime~]

I don't own a gun because I am worried about the gov/military/etc....I own a gun because if someone breaks into my home I am going to blow their head off.

There are plenty of men out there who are bigger/stronger than myself, and I am not an MMA fighter, I work at a computer every day. If you are a threat to me or my family, I don't want to fist fight, you're getting fckin shot.

And any stats out there showing accidents vs defense or things of that nature do not apply to me. I am a responsible and sober adult, what other idiots out there are doing with their guns means nothing to me really.

[Dresta]

I don't own a gun because I am worried about the gov/military/etc....I own a gun because if someone breaks into my home I am going to blow their head off.

There are plenty of men out there who are bigger/stronger than myself, and I am not an MMA fighter, I work at a computer every day. If you are a threat to me or my family, I don't want to fist fight, you're getting fckin shot.

And any stats out there showing accidents vs defense or things of that nature do not apply to me. I am a responsible and sober adult, what other idiots out there are doing with their guns means nothing to me really.

Exactly. Aggregated statistics are not a justification for forcing people's security (and that of their families) out of their own hands.

[UK2K]

I don't own a gun because I am worried about the gov/military/etc....I own a gun because if someone breaks into my home I am going to blow their head off.

There are plenty of men out there who are bigger/stronger than myself, and I am not an MMA fighter, I work at a computer every day. If you are a threat to me or my family, I don't want to fist fight, you're getting fckin shot.

And any stats out there showing accidents vs defense or things of that nature do not apply to me. I am a responsible and sober adult, what other idiots out there are doing with their guns means nothing to me really.

Done and done.

Accidentally happen, but if you look up the statistics, as I pointed out, 3/4 of gun related deaths are suicide and gang violence, neither of which apply to me.

So I couldn't care less what the statistics say.

[FillJackson]

And if they had shipped a truck load of cocaine into downtown Chicago during a drug enforcement operation, and lost that truck, and that cocaine was scooped up by random people and used, would your response be the same?

Keep in mind, this cocaine is directly related to 200+ deaths. Is your opinion still 'meh'?

I never say my opinion was 'meh.' I said their screwups occurred within the context of a law enforcement operation. It's not like these were rogue agents who were selling guns, the issue is blundering not corruption.

I don't think your example is apples to apples either. They would be the ones shipping a truck would they? They would be tracking a truck driven by criminals.

They didn't do "the shipping" or "the distributing" of the guns. That was being done by an existing criminal network. What they did do was not disrupt this distribution of guns. They did this with legitimate law enforcement goal of learning who directing this network and arresting them. An approach used for decades in drug cases. Their screwup was this was too risky a strategy, because, especially given the size and capabilities of the team was too small to actually ensure they wouldn't lose the guns. Also a bunch of lost AR-15s are riskier than a bunch of lost coke.

My point in this thread, is that this example is completely irrelevant to the debate on gun control.


What is the source for 200 deaths?